Flashing Red Lights in the Rear View Mirror

[00:00:00] [Jaunty Guitar Music]

[00:00:11] Welcome everyone to Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, a series brought to you by the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition, I'm Mike McGowan. You know, in all these conversations, we've explored the variety of ways people recover from substance use and addiction. And sometimes we talk about what got them there at that point to begin with.

[00:00:32] Well, that's our conversation today. My guest Veronica King is an adjunct instructor at Gateway Technical College. And Veronica facilitates, among other things, the Group Dynamics class for folks who have been convicted of driving under the influence. Veronica is a longtime social worker, clinical substance abuse counselor, and is also, I just have to throw this in it's not germane to our talk tonight, the president of the Kenosha NAACP. Welcome Veronica.

[00:01:02] Veronica: Welcome. Thank you.

[00:01:03] Mike: Well, I'm so glad you could join us. You know, for those people who have never been lucky enough to be pulled over let's start by just telling us a little bit about the group dynamics class.

[00:01:13] Like who's it for? How do they get there? You know, the drill.

[00:01:18] Veronica: Okay. Basically what happens is once an individual is arrested for operating while impaired, they have an assessment completed at either the Hope Council in Kenosha or in Racine, they go to the Workforce Development Center. And they're assessed to determine if they need treatment or if they need education or both. And from the assessment, they then go to Gateway Technical College and enroll in either the Group Dynamics course or the Multiple Offender course, if they've had more than one OWI.

[00:02:01] Mike: So the Group Dynamics is just for first time offenders?

[00:02:04] Veronica: It's just for the first time offender. Yes. So the class that I conduct is all first time offenders.

[00:02:14] Mike: How long does it run?

[00:02:16] Veronica: If they come on a weekday evening, the course meets for three and a half hours for six weeks. If they take the class on Saturday morning, it meets for five and a half hours and it meets for four Saturdays.

[00:02:34] Mike: Which one is the most popular one to choose?

[00:02:37] Veronica: They're actually both popular. I've had both classes fill up, the Saturday class as well as the Wednesday night class.

[00:02:44] Mike: Now, do you just have to sit there and take it all in or do you need to actually do something to be counted as complete?

[00:02:52] Veronica: You have to actively participate.

[00:02:56] Mike: And you're the judge of that?

[00:02:57] Veronica: Yes.

[00:02:58] Mike: So you're the instructor.

[00:02:59] Veronica: Yes.

[00:03:00] Mike: Don't you have a workbook that you go through?

[00:03:02] Veronica: Yes. There is a workbook that is put together by the Wisconsin Department of Transportation and the Wisconsin Technical College System. They work together to prepare the book for the group dynamics course.

[00:03:18] And so there's a curriculum, set curriculum, that instructors follow and we add additional information as well to the class.

[00:03:28] Mike: So if the individual doesn't complete your class, they don't get their license back?

[00:03:35] Veronica: Right. Or if they have a current license, it's suspended for failure to comply with the with their driver's safety plan, which would include group dynamics.

[00:03:46] Mike: And I imagine everything's computerized. So the state automatically knows that?

[00:03:50] Veronica: Yes. And when they successfully complete the course, they get a copy of the document that Gateway forwards to the Department of Motor Vehicles.

[00:04:02] Mike: Now, you know, I used to do these back in the day.

[00:04:06] Veronica: Okay.

[00:04:06] Mike: And so I actually enjoyed them a lot to do them.

[00:04:10] And I bet you're good at this. I love the facilitating part of it. Do you?

[00:04:14] Veronica: Yes, absolutely. Cause I make it interesting.

[00:04:18] Mike: I bet. [laugh] How do you, how do you do that?

[00:04:21] Veronica: Well, I include videos so that they see firsthand information and situations that have occurred right here in the state of Wisconsin. Uh, Back in February of 2021 there was a red truck driving on the expressway in Milwaukee and he was driving too fast for conditions.

[00:04:43] And this is the red truck that went over that hit the. He actually hit a snow mound and, and fell 70 feet to the expressway below. So it's videos like that, that I show the students.

[00:04:59] Mike: Is that the one where he actually landed on his tires?

[00:05:03] Veronica: Yes. Yes.

[00:05:04] Mike: That's that is incredible to watch.

[00:05:07] Veronica: Yes. And then two weeks later there was the impaired female driver who flipped her vehicle in the Marquette interchange. And she actually hit two of the rails of cement. So she landed under the viaduct.

[00:05:26] Mike: Yeah, I remember that too.

[00:05:27] Veronica: So I show students those types of videos in the class.

[00:05:31] Mike: Well, now you have, then you have to choose some of that, cuz that can't be part of the workbook that I'm sure.

[00:05:37] Veronica: Right. That's not part of the workbook, but I showed them that on the very first day of class, to get their attention and to show them just how dangerous impaired driving or driving too fast for conditions can cause.

[00:05:54] Mike: Is that the lesson that's called "There, but for the grace of God, go, I"? [laugh]

[00:05:58] Veronica: Yes, so it's those kinds of interesting things that you add to the class that really hits home for the students?

[00:06:08] Mike: Well the, what I wanted to spend quite a bit of time on if you don't mind is well first, how many people in a class generally?

[00:06:15] Veronica: Generally there's 15 students per class.

[00:06:18] Mike: Okay. So of the 15. How many come in with their arms crossed, looking at the ceiling, couldn't look more disinterested and bored?

[00:06:29] How many look embarrassed to be there? And how many are just like, I don't even know why I'm here. This is just a total scam. I, you know, I didn't have anything to do with this.

[00:06:37] Veronica: Well, you get a wide variety of emotions and expressions from these students. Some come in still in denial. They wanna blame law enforcement. Others come in accepting some responsibility, but they really don't wanna be there.

[00:06:55] And then you get those that take responsibility, accept the reason why they need to be there and are open to learn what they can from the course. So you get a wide variety of emotions and expressions the first day of class.

[00:07:15] Mike: Yeah. I always found those people who took full responsibility, kind of boring.

[00:07:19] I like the other ones better. [laugh]

[00:07:21] Veronica: They are sometimes a little more difficult to reach. So it's the videos and newspaper articles that you share that gets their attention. And finally the information settles in or the light bulb will go on.

[00:07:37] Mike: Can you see the light bulb go on?

[00:07:39] Veronica: Oh yeah. You can see the light bulb go on.

[00:07:42] Mike: It's great. So, how do you handle somebody who comes in wanting to blame the judge, the law enforcement? Anybody except for themselves?

[00:07:54] Veronica: And that's when I tell them that law enforcement, the courts, and even Gateway for that much, our goal is to keep our community safe and it all falls under public safety.

[00:08:11] And so judges, as well as law enforcement have a responsibility to keep our community safe. And one way to keep the community safe is by arresting OWI drivers and making sure they get the education they need so that they don't continue to put the public in danger.

[00:08:34] Mike: Do, do you wish that there could be a follow up? I always did. Where if they do recommit, that they get a second chance to walk in your door?

[00:08:46] Veronica: Well, they get a second chance in the multiple offender class.

[00:08:51] Mike: Mm-hmm. Do you teach that too?

[00:08:53] Veronica: I don't teach the multiple offender class yet. I have to go through the training first to be certified to teach that course.

[00:09:03] But I've, I've been teaching so many of the group dynamics courses. I haven't had a chance to sit through the multiple offender class to get certified.

[00:09:14] Mike: Yeah. I always found it was helpful anytime I could in the courthouse or anything else, look at somebody and say welcome back, that it helped break through some of that denial anyway.

[00:09:22] Veronica: Yes. Yes.

[00:09:24] Mike: And how about the embarrassment? Cause there has to be people who are ashamed that this happened to them, embarrassed. They were caught. Unaware.

[00:09:34] Veronica: Sure. Basically what we do is part of their requirement for group dynamics is you have to share your arrest story.

[00:09:42] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:43] Veronica: So you're telling us when the arrest occurred, how it occurred, whether or not you went to jail. If you went to jail, what that experience was like you tell us if you have to have a interlock installed in your vehicle. Tell us if you're wearing a SCRAM bracelet. So you have to share your arrest story.

[00:10:06] Mike: And for those that don't know, a SCRAM bracelet is?

[00:10:10] Veronica: The SCRAM bracelet is a continuous alcohol monitoring bracelet.

[00:10:15] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:16] Veronica: It's similar to the GPS bracelet that batterers or sex offenders wear.

[00:10:21] The only difference is. SCRAM bracelet doesn't monitor where you're at, it monitors if there's any alcohol in your system and it's detected through the sweat pores.

[00:10:35] Mike: Geez Louise, that I, I had a dad that when he was, he had a drinking problem, Veronica and I you know, when he would sweat, you could it smell like bad bar carpet. Right?

[00:10:46] Veronica: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:47] Mike: Only imagine that you can detect that. Well, I, is there a certain level that you need to hit blood alcohol wise before you get an interlock device?

[00:10:56] Veronica: Yes. If your blood alcohol level is .015 and higher, you can be required to have the interlock installed in your vehicle.

[00:11:08] Mike: Which means alcohol 15% in your blood, right?

[00:11:11] Veronica: Yeah.

[00:11:12] Mike: Yeah. So over .15, what if I own three cars?

[00:11:17] Veronica: Then the DMV and the judge will require you to have the interlock installed in all vehicles that have your name associated with the vehicle. But what individuals can do is plead a financial hardship to the judge and ask the judge if they could have it installed in just one vehicle.

[00:11:39] And they'll, that's the only vehicle that they would drive.

[00:11:43] Mike: Otherwise it's in your, your daughter's car that she takes to high school or.

[00:11:48] Veronica: Right. It's in any vehicle that has your name. That's what the DMV is gonna be looking at.

[00:11:54] Mike: Is that device, do you just blow in it to start your car or?

[00:11:58] Veronica: Yes, blow in it to start the vehicle.

[00:12:01] Mike: Do you have to continue to blow in it.

[00:12:03] Veronica: Yes while you're driving. If you're driving a particularly 15, 20 minute distance, you're required to continue to blow in the vehicle, which otherwise it is shut off.

[00:12:17] Mike: Which means that you can't have somebody else blow in it, start it then you drive while drinking.

[00:12:22] Veronica: Right.

[00:12:23] Mike: Boy, which would you. You would think nobody would do that, but there, you know, clearly they developed that so that because somebody's like, yeah, somebody's gonna scam this and try to drive drinking anyway.

[00:12:35] Veronica: Right. And if you don't blow in it, your vehicle starts honking. Like it's a stolen vehicle.

[00:12:43] Mike: [laugh] Well, now next time my neighbor's car goes off. The horn goes off. I'm gonna think about 'em twice now.

[00:12:51] Veronica: So your students that are in denial when they hear these horror stories from people that have the interlock installed in their vehicle, Sometimes that's what wakes them up.

[00:13:03] Mike: Really?

[00:13:04] Veronica: Yes.

[00:13:05] Mike: Because that, why, why would that do it rather than seeing somebody drop 70 feet onto their wheels off a freeway?

[00:13:12] Veronica: Because they understand that if they're arrested again for like a second OWI, that interlock is mandatory.

[00:13:22] Mike: Wow.

[00:13:23] Veronica: And also. The fear of having of the interlock installed and the cost involved with that is sometimes enough to get their attention too.

[00:13:34] Mike: Do you know the cost? I, I don't know the cost.

[00:13:36] Veronica: Oh, it's, it's very costly. I've had students say it can cost as much as $1800.

[00:13:43] Mike: Wow.

[00:13:44] Veronica: For one year.

[00:13:46] Mike: And that's on top of the court fee. The fine.

[00:13:49] Veronica: Yes.

[00:13:49] Mike: The lawyer. If you hired one.

[00:13:52] Veronica: Yes.

[00:13:52] Mike: This isn't cheap. And your insurance continues to go be elevated for a while, right?

[00:13:58] Veronica: Yes. Cuz they're required to have the SR-22 insurance as well.

[00:14:03] Mike: Yeah. That's a special insurance through...

[00:14:05] Veronica: Yes.

[00:14:05] Mike: There's different companies that offer it. Well, I think do most companies offer that?

[00:14:09] Veronica: Most companies do? Yes.

[00:14:12] Mike: Wow. How long does it stay on your record?

[00:14:14] Veronica: Now an OWI stays on your record indefinitely.

[00:14:20] Mike: So can that affect your insurance indefinitely too then? Do you know?

[00:14:23] Veronica: It can. Sure.

[00:14:25] Mike: Wow.

[00:14:25] Veronica: Because the, your insurance companies might consider you a risk.

[00:14:29] Mike: Hmm. Wow. And so when you do the they would call it an AA drunk log. When you, when you do the, what did you drink? How'd you get arrested?

[00:14:38] Where were you? All of that stuff? You've been doing this a long time.

[00:14:42] Veronica: I've been doing it for four and a half years now.

[00:14:44] Mike: So people have to minimize, lie during that period of time on how much that, even though there's no consequence in the class, you still must see people underestimating what they drank that day.

[00:14:58] Veronica: Oh sure. And one thing I'll ask the entire class is how many of you drove impaired prior to your arrest.

[00:15:07] You tend to see all hands go up.

[00:15:09] Mike: Yeah, right, right. I always tell when I work with kids or whatever, get caught with something, I'm like, if you, if this is really the first time you get caught with anything, you're just really unlucky, you know?

[00:15:20] So most of the, most of the time, it's not the first time around the block.

[00:15:23] Veronica: Right.

[00:15:24] Mike: So I think people really misunderstand. I get asked the question a lot about what does it take to get to 0.08, which is the state legal limit.

[00:15:34] Veronica: Yes.

[00:15:35] Mike: Go ahead.

[00:15:35] Veronica: And, you know, it depends on if you've had, if you're drinking shots whether or not it's beer or, or a wine cooler or White Claws, it also depends on how your body metabolizes alcohol.

[00:15:52] And it also depends on if you're drinking with your drinks [inaudible].

[00:15:58] Mike: Yeah.

[00:15:58] Veronica: So all those are factors into how fast or how long it takes someone to become impaired.

[00:16:06] Mike: But these people who who will come in and say, well, I, I blew a 0.24.

[00:16:11] Veronica: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:12] Mike: But I only had three drinks. That's just [laugh], unless they were 16 ounces of ever clear a piece.

[00:16:18] I doubt that that's the truth. Right?

[00:16:20] Veronica: Right.

[00:16:20] Or sometimes they'll have shots and the beer is a chaser to the shots.

[00:16:28] They're not telling you the full story.

[00:16:31] Mike: Yeah. Right. And I think that's where people get into trouble. Now you, you must have also, you know, I, I think it's hard to predict oftentimes right.

[00:16:41] Where you don't know if somebody is going to get it the first time, but you must think that you see people go, okay. I don't think I'll see them again.

[00:16:51] Veronica: Well, the ones you tend to run into that are those that have some additional consequences that maybe others in the class may not have faced. For instance I've had nurses in my class or I've had another social worker or two in the class.

[00:17:11] So in Wisconsin, when it's time to renew that license. They have to report that OWI. So that's a consequence that professionals would license your face, that someone that doesn't have a license, a professional license wouldn't face, those are generally the individuals that you may not see again, because you're jeopardizing a career now.

[00:17:41] Mike: Can they, I don't know. Can that jeopardize their license the first time?

[00:17:46] Veronica: Yes.

[00:17:46] Mike: Hmm.

[00:17:47] Veronica: Because the Department of Safety and Professional Services may request proof that you've had some type of treatment before they issue that license.

[00:17:58] Mike: Do you ever have somebody come in and actually be thankful that they're in your class because nothing more happened?

[00:18:07] Veronica: Sure. I've had a few and they've appreciated the information that they've learned in the class as well.

[00:18:16] Mike: When, when they say that out loud, how are they greeted by the deniers?

[00:18:20] Veronica: Well, they, you know, they'll look at 'em like, are you nuts?

[00:18:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:18:24] Veronica: Or what did you get out of this class? You know, kind of thing. So it, it varies by individual, but your deniers are the ones, you know, that tend to look bored in class.

[00:18:39] Or you could tell they're daydreaming, they're physically there, but mentally they're not in the class.

[00:18:46] Mike: I had a friend of mine who was drinking too much, drove home, was not with him obviously that night, and woke up at his house with the police knocking at the door. And didn't even know why they were there.

[00:18:57] A guy was getting out of his car, had opened his driver's door and my friend had sheared that door off and lost his license plate when that happened. And did not even know. So the police who woke him up, they found him at his house, of course, and he needed to blow into the breathalyzer there.

[00:19:17] He had no recollection of that at all. Well, that was the last time he ever drank. They, they, and he said those police and getting arrested for drunk driving that night saved his life and probably saved other people's lives too. So you have, you know, people have to understand that happens also right?

[00:19:31] Veronica: Yes. I've had students that said they stopped drinking as a result of that OWI.

[00:19:39] Mike: And, and you must also get then people looking at them going, are you nuts?

[00:19:43] Veronica: Right. I remember I taught a Friday evening class and when the class let out at 9:30, I had a student say to the other students, where we going? And so I said to him, you're going home.

[00:20:00] Mike: There you go. [laugh]

[00:20:02] Veronica: Right. Where are we going?

[00:20:05] Mike: [laugh] Well, and that's the one where you, you wanna have a pamphlet to the multiple offenders class in your hand it just hand it to him right?

[00:20:11] Veronica: Yes.

[00:20:12] Mike: It's so sad.

[00:20:14] Now you've also worked on the back end of it. And this is, I would consider this sort of the front end in the Department of Corrections.

[00:20:21] Veronica: Yes.

[00:20:21] Mike: Do you work that into your dialogue with them in the class?

[00:20:24] Veronica: Oh, absolutely. And I share with them that some of those individuals that are committed to the Department of Corrections have 6, 7, 8, 9 OWI's.

[00:20:38] Some of them have, are charged with intoxicate homicide by intoxicated use of a vehicle, where individuals have lost their lives. Yes.

[00:20:51] Mike: You know, [sigh] I just, you know, we, it's not like our laws are that strict, right?

[00:20:59] Veronica: Yes.

[00:21:00] Mike: And I, I know a lot of these folks are driving without licenses at that point and whatnot.

[00:21:05] Veronica: That too.

[00:21:06] Mike: Yeah. What do you, you know, if, if somebody does decide in that case that they need more. Assistance. I mean, be because even though I also did assessments we had Hope on who she does, the assessments, you know, earlier on a podcast and it is always possible to get BS'ed in an assessment.

[00:21:28] Veronica: Oh, sure.

[00:21:29] Mike: So you must sit, look up and go, oh yeah, you probably need a little bit more than you're gettin' here.

[00:21:35] Is there a referral source for that?

[00:21:38] Veronica: Yes. Generally, what we do is we, I have a list of all the areas where you can get substance abuse treatment in the Kenosha, Racine area. And so if you, if I get a student that is looking for more treatment or more services, we provide them with that information. And also both counties have under their Department of Human Services have disability services in where they can get additional mental health services as well.

[00:22:13] So in Kenosha County Oakwood Clinical Associates provides the treatment portion. If someone's required to have Substance abuse treatment.

[00:22:24] Mike: It's not easy. Right? I mean, if you, what you said before, if somebody's willing to drive without a license, do it 6, 7, 8, 9 times. Hurt somebody, kill somebody and still do it again.

[00:22:34] That person is troubled. They have a problem and needs to be...

[00:22:37] Veronica: Yes.

[00:22:37] Mike: Needs to be looked at. It's a disease.

[00:22:40] You know, I wanna kind of wrap it with this because you're therapist. You're in private practice. You're a master's level. You're a doctoral candidate.

[00:22:49] Veronica: Yeah.

[00:22:49] Mike: You don't need to be doing this. So there must be a reason why you do this.

[00:22:55] Veronica: Well, I I've always worked with the offender population that has been my niche. And then once I got licensed as a substance abuse counselor in training, and then the. I earned the Clinical Substance Abuse Counselor license. And I now have the Independent Clinical Supervisor license.

[00:23:17] My niche is actually the offender population with substance use disorders. That's been my niche.

[00:23:25] Mike: And you must love it too.

[00:23:27] Veronica: Yes. So I work in the hospital setting and now I work in the academic setting. And I've worked in the correctional setting all with the offender population, with substance use disorder.

[00:23:40] Mike: Yeah. I that's the population that I connect with also, it's so real, isn't it?

[00:23:46] Veronica: Yes, cuz they tend to go hand in hand the substance abuse behavior and the criminal behavior.

[00:23:53] Mike: [laugh] Yes, it does. And the sooner we make that connection at a policy level, the better off will be.

[00:23:59] Veronica: Yes.

[00:24:00] Mike: People say to me all the time, Veronica.

[00:24:02] Oh, well, nothing works unless you've hit rock bottom. You know, you, you can lead a and it's like, well, what's this what's rock bottom with this.

[00:24:11] Veronica: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:12] Well on rock bottom could be homeless and addicted. Rock bottom could be in jail or prison.

[00:24:21] Mike: Yep.

[00:24:21] Veronica: And you don't necessarily have to hit rock bottom to recognize you have a problem and you need help.

[00:24:28] Mike: That's right. And if, and if you wait till you do, rock bottom could be not here anymore too.

[00:24:33] Veronica: Yes.

[00:24:34] Mike: Yeah. Well, this, this is just totally fascinating. I just love talking about this as it probably comes across on the podcast. And I really appreciate you taking the time out to do this with us today.

[00:24:46] Veronica: You know, on one last thing I wanna add is when I first started teaching this course, it was primarily people driving impaired due to alcohol.

[00:24:57] Mike: Oh, please go there.

[00:24:57] Veronica: And the courses changed over the years, because now you have people driving impaired with under the influence of marijuana, as well as under the influence of opiates. So my classes have changed over the years from being completely all alcohol to a portion alcohol, a portion marijuana, a portion opiates.

[00:25:24] Mike: Okay. Oh boy, this is a whole nother podcast. I'm just tempted to go there right now. So do you find there's a difference between those?

[00:25:31] Veronica: Oh, absolutely.

[00:25:32] Mike: Yep. Yep. And so Kenosha and Racine, for those of you who are listening out of Wisconsin or on the east coast where you don't know where Wisconsin is, is really close to the Illinois border, where the marijuana is available through dispensaries.

[00:25:45] Veronica: Yes.

[00:25:46] Mike: Just like it is in Michigan. So we're surrounded at this point.

[00:25:50] Veronica: You know, when students that were under the influence of marijuana, share their arrest stories. They're telling us that when they hand law enforcement their driver's license and their insurance card, the marijuana is billowing out of the window.

[00:26:10] Mike: Unbelievable. And you know, this is another podcast. There's a way that they test for that. It's not through a breathalyzer, obviously.

[00:26:17] Veronica: Right. They have to have a legal blood draw.

[00:26:20] Mike: Yeah. And, and it breaks down into you know, the metabolites so that the officers can tell the court can tell by how it's broken out.

[00:26:27] How long ago you smoked the weed.

[00:26:30] Veronica: Right.

[00:26:31] Mike: Yeah.

[00:26:32] Veronica: So if you have a chronic smoker. The nanograms in their blood is gonna be high all the time, whether they were impaired that particular day or not.

[00:26:44] Mike: Yeah. Okay. I, I feel part two coming up. So be, be aware that for those of you listening and Veronica, you're gonna get a email from me where you can just do that back to back or something.

[00:26:55] Veronica: Okay.

[00:26:56] Mike: Yeah. Cause it, it, and I'll tell you why. And I think I may have mentioned this in one other podcast. I was just up in Michigan. And the line at the dispensary. I was stayed in a hotel across from this dispensary, was around the block at seven in the morning.

[00:27:15] Veronica: Wow.

[00:27:16] Mike: And you could buy, as an individual. We, you and I could go up there together.

[00:27:20] And each of us as an adult could buy two and a half ounces, a day. So that in three days, if we shared a hotel room, we could walk out of there with a pound of weed between the three of us, between the two of us.

[00:27:34] Veronica: Yes.

[00:27:35] Mike: Okay. That's not personal use. And then, you know, it's really close to the border where I was, and there's only two roads to get across, back into Wisconsin.

[00:27:46] Veronica: Wow.

[00:27:47] Mike: They're not, well, yeah, it's another podcast. We'll go there some other time.

[00:27:51] Veronica: Okay.

[00:27:52] Mike: Anyway, Veronica, thank you so much for being with us today. This was just delightful.

[00:27:57] Veronica: Thank you.

[00:27:58] Mike: You're welcome.

[00:27:59] Veronica: And I look forward to being on your podcast again.

[00:28:02] Mike: Well, we'll do it. [laugh] We'll do it like right away.

[00:28:04] Veronica: Ok.

[00:28:05] Mike: Those of you listening, listen in next week, who knows who it'll be. Until then please stay safe. And when you look in the rear view mirror, let's hope you don't see red flashing lights.

[00:28:15] Veronica: Yes.

[00:28:16] [END AUDIO]