Recovery Doesn’t Happen in a Vacuum

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Recovery doesn't happen in a vacuum any more than the addiction did. Family, friends, co workers are all affected by the disease. That's where we're going to start today with our guest, Jim Savage.

Mike: Jim is the owner of Rehab Works! Family Support Program and Jim Savage Consulting. He is the author of Rehab Works!, A Parent's Guide to Drug Treatment, and a new ebook, Sobriety Doesn't Have to Suck, A Guide to Finding Happiness, Excitement, and Spiritual Fulfillment in Recovery. Jim has been helping individuals and families in recovery for over three decades.

Mike: Welcome, Jim.

Jim: Hi there, Mike. Thanks for having me.

Mike: Well, I'm so glad you could be with us today. And you're what? You're, I forget now. You're on the East Coast? Is that it?

Jim: I'm in Connecticut. I just moved to Connecticut. I was in Dallas for almost 40 years.

Mike: Wow.

Jim: And then we just moved up to Connecticut a y ear ago.

Mike: Well, we're expecting, I'm in the Midwest, and we're expecting tomorrow a spring snowstorm that inevitably will hit you probably this weekend. That's the way it goes, right?

Jim: I was just outside and I said to somebody, the only thing that's missing is the snow. We may as well have snow because it's that cold right now.

Mike: Well, let's start with this. Would it be fair, Jim, to say that when an individual has a substance abuse disorder, everybody around that individual also has the disease, but the symptoms are just different?

Jim: That would be fair to say, loosely speaking, you know. I bet the best way I could answer this, I've been, I have a lecture that I've been giving for a gazillion years.

Jim: It's one of the first things that I share with families. When I started working with them, I call it the 8 second lecture on chemical dependency. And I draw a picture on the board of a person, I say this is the substance user, and then I draw a picture of a bottle or a drug, and I say this is the substance, and then I draw a circle that indicates the substance user's life begins to revolve around the use of the substance.

Jim: And just like you're doing right now, I always say, when I say that, the families start to nod. As soon as they hear that, they go, yep, that's it. His or her life has begun to revolve around the substance use. And then I say, because we saved so much time on that, we can do the 8 second lecture on codependency.

Jim: And then I draw some other people outside that circle, and I say, unfortunately, this person has other people in his or her life. In the 8 second lecture on codependency, is these people's lives begin to revolve around this person's life, whose life is revolving around the substance user, or the substance.

Jim: And what type of day they have depends on what kind of day the substance user is having, which depends on his relationship with the substance at any given moment. And then I say that they are, in a sense, codependent, and so that's sort of this definition of codependency at its most base definition. It can get more complex than that, obviously.

Jim: But, all the family members really start nodding when they see that their life has been revolving around the substance user's life. And so, it's that, you know, bottom line is what's happening there is the substance user, if we want to use the term disease, you know, that's a sort of a lightning rod as far as some people argue about whether it's a disease or condition or whatever, and we'll leave that one alone.

Jim: But something's going on there, a dynamic with that person's relationship with substances, and they end up choosing the substance over other things that you would think are important to them, like family members, and when the family members are on the receiving end of that, they can't help but be affected, you know, emotionally, they're hurt, they're scared, etc.

Jim: And this dynamic, an unhealthy dynamic develops between the substance user and those people who are, you know, closely, you know, involved with that person, and that's, you know, there's a line out of the Alcoholics Anonymous book that says, and they wrote this in 1939, it said an illness of this sort, and we believe it is an illness, that was them going out on a limb in 1939, but the point that they're making in this page, it says an illness of this sort, and we believe it to be an illness, affects those around the sufferer like no other illness does.

Jim: When a person has cancer or some other illness, everybody feels bad for them and they want to support them in any way, but then they say not so with the alcoholic illness. And they have a description of it wreaks havoc on everybody's lives who touch that person. So that's your answer to the symptoms of other people around them.

Mike: Well, and even though people will, that's, it makes sense and they start nodding, they're still focused often on the user. And oftentimes family members use the phrase walking on eggshells. Well, in your experience, what keeps people from just being honest? Tell them, tell them, tell them what they're feeling, what they're experiencing.

Jim: You know, (chuckle) you're going right down my list of, of this is what I teach families when I start working the first two things, you know, first I give them that lecture and then I introduce the idea of a mobile, you know, the thing that hangs over a baby's crib, it's got the separate pieces, but they're all connected somehow.

Jim: And I'll say that in. In addiction treatment, we, in the family therapy part of it, we employ what we call a systems approach, systems theory, because there's some laws of systems theory. A system is a group of separate objects that are somehow interconnected. And there's laws of systems theory.

Jim: And a family is a system, just like the human body is a system of different parts, but they all interact together. And the first law of systems theory is called homeostasis. A system has an innate or inherent tendency to maintain balance. And the reason the mobile is so effective is you can't push one piece of the mobile without all the other pieces moving.

Jim: And so if I lift one piece up, it's going to skew the balance of that system. And so that's what's going on in a family system is, and I say in family therapy with the term for homeostasis, is don't rock the boat. There is an inner tendency. It's an unspoken, unconscious agreement among all the family members is we don't rock the boat.

Jim: That's the number one thing. And so when an unhealthy behavior begins, like an addiction, everybody gets affected, like the circle lecture illustrated. But then, we also are going to not say anything about it because that would disrupt the system. And that's the best explanation I can give is it's that homeostasis.

Jim: It gets a lot deeper as to why that's happening. But that's the eggshells thing is we're guided by an unspoken, let's not rock the boat here.

Mike: Well, and, but in order to get healthy, the system has to be rocked. And you know, so many places, Jim say they, Oh, we do family treatment.

Mike: We, we do family support. And I don't know, over my career, I find that. That's less likely to be the case than fact. So what is a good family support program look like? And how do you rock the system in a way that people will go with it?

Jim: Well, the first part of your question, I'm sort of with you.

Jim: I think I, I understand where you're coming from when you say treatment centers will say we have family programming, you know, over the years I've seen that become, you know, them having, this is putting it politely, having a tougher time implementing that because of budget cuts and it's, you just, you know, my facetious answer to, you know, what's the, the best family program, you know, what would be the best thing, it would be the treatment center that checks the families in along with the clients at the time of admission.

Jim: Now, you're nodding your head, you understand, you know, where I'm coming from with that. I'll say to listeners, I'm not implying or it's not an indictment on saying that the families are that dysfunctional that they need to be hospitalized themself. Not that there couldn't be something to be said for that part also, but my main point in saying that is to point to just the huge piece that education plays in addiction treatment, because the bottom line is you know, the way the system is set up, the treatment client is there 24/7. And they're learning a ton about addiction and recovery and what this treatment process is supposed to look like.

Jim: And the family members are not learning all that stuff. And you know, I sometimes say, well, if we, you know, the bottom line is we want to talk about improving treatment outcomes. How do we make treatment successful? Sure, it's a complex issue and there's a lot of variables that go into that, but from my position and working with families I will say that if we had a pie chart, a very large slice of that pie would be the impact that family support can have on the outcome of treatment.

Jim: And it starts just by learning what they're learning because, you know, I'll tell the families, guess what? Newsflash, some of the things that they're learning in treatment, the clients are learning, they don't like hearing and they may not agree with it and if they know that the family doesn't know what they're learning, what are the chances are that they're going to report that accurately to the family?

Jim: Oh, guess what? I'm not supposed to hang around with my, you know, drug using friends anymore, you know, and if the family doesn't know that you know, this is it's a it's a really unfortunate situation in addiction treatment is the people supporting the the client end up feeling crazy because one that they're aware that they're not learning.

Jim: There's so much that they have questions about. And then it's hard to get the answers in the one phone call they get from the family counselor or the Saturday afternoon education thing once a month or something like that. And they end up feeling crazy, but then they don't know. Well, I don't want to be wrong and accuse my loved one of not following instructions or something like that.

Jim: And that's one of the biggest reasons I think for poor treatment outcomes is just the lack of accountability. So it just starts with educating the family as much as possible. It's tough in the current system, you know, the bottom line is the more the family can learn about addiction and how it's treated and what recovery looks like, that can have a huge impact on how treatment goes.

Mike: Well, think about somebody who goes through treatment or gets into recovery, but is in a relationship with, you know, a dad, a mom, a kid, or a partner they come out yeah can I have the checkbook? If that family member isn't involved in counseling at some point, everything becomes an argument.

Jim: Absolutely. And, again, going back to the importance of the education, one of the things that I teach the families... I'm getting ready to say a word. I bet you'll nod. It's a buzz word. Everybody gets it, boundaries, setting boundaries. We have to learn how to set boundaries. And that's what the treatment programs, they know that the families need to learn how to set boundaries.

Jim: And again, It's sort of an extensive piece of work to effectively do that. That's what I do in my practices. I coach families and I teach them and I'm just on the phone texting right now with a family that I've got the guys in treatment and he's signing a letter. He wants to leave.

Jim: They've been working with me for two months before we got him into treatment because I was teaching them how to set boundaries and they were stunned that we were able to get him into treatment as easily because it was a very tough case. But, because we were working on teaching them how to set the boundaries and the expectations, but that starts with educating them, I use the term informed boundaries, to be able to set informed boundaries.

Jim: So when they understand how the treatment process works, when they understand all the nature of the condition of having a substance use disorder, then they know why, oh, that's why it's appropriate. To insist on you getting your problem treated. Or they understand this is getting, you know, into deeper relapse prevention stuff.

Jim: Oh! Having access to money, unfettered access to money could be a potential, we call that relapse trigger because that could put them in a situation that tests their, where they're not really strong enough yet to make those kind of decisions. And so the family understands, no, me not allowing you to have access to this is actually supporting your treatment, you know, and sometimes their gut will be there, but if they don't have the education on that, They just look like they're being controlled.

Jim: "No, you can't have the money! Why not? Because!" You know, instead of, and that gets them drawn into the dysfunctional conversation, as opposed to saying, I don't think that, you know, and that's really what it is. They know all this stuff that they're not letting the family, why can't I have my checkbook? You know why.

Mike: Yeah.

Jim: I'm not going there with you and I tell them, set your boundaries with a smile on your face. Nope. Sorry. As opposed to, Oh, I don't think that would be, do you think that would be a good idea? That's going into that dysfunctional conversation as opposed to, Oh, I'm sorry, you can't have your checkbook right now. You know, why!

Jim: And then I'll also tell, you know, I coach the families. I'll say, and if they ask you why. You know, I think maybe you should go ask your counselor about that. Because I know your counselor's teaching you about that and what you're doing right now is trying to drag me into your playing dumb and trying to get me to call your bluff that you don't know why you know why, but if you don't, that's why you're in treatment is to learn that stuff.

Mike: Well, and going back to the gentleman you're working with, which is not an uncommon situation, right, where somebody gets into counseling or treatment and then goes, I don't want to look at this. I want out of this. And wants to sign the papers. If you've been working with them, what do you want the family to say to this individual?

Jim: This is a case, it's a, you know, an older adult child you know, and it's the siblings and parents that I'm working with, but they have a lot of leverage, you know, boundaries comes down to leverage. And sometimes, you know, the 19 year old failure to launch kid, there's a lot of leverage.

Jim: They're not a lot different than a minor child, you know, with minors, parents are responsible for the welfare of a minor. They don't have a say in it. If you need to have a substance use disorder treated, you need to do it. We're liable if you don't treat it. But with the adult, then it, it gets a little trickier, but it comes down to leverage.

Jim: Parents of a 19 year old who's totally dependent on them can say, you know what, you're making it a choice. We're giving you the choice. We will support you getting the help that you need for your substance use issue. Or, you're perfectly free to walk out the door and make it on your own and play the adult card.

Jim: Now, a 40 year old child who's married and has got their own family, you know, there might not be any leverage that way other than just emotional, you know. We can't sit back and watch you ruin your life, and so we're gonna distance ourself from you is, is maybe all they can, but in this case, you know, this is an example.

Jim: They had a lot of leverage with this and I told them the first time I heard that an AMA (Against Medical Advice) was signed, you know, he's not going any place. Just tell him go back. You know, say you're for, you're perfectly free to walk out the door of that treatment center and you're on your own. And this was a sort of an easy case because there was a lot of leverage.

Jim: And you know, that turned out to not be an issue at all.

Mike: And what I found, Jim, is that when if people go back and say, Oh, okay, I'll pick you up or I guess this one that that sets you back as a family a long time because it's hard to get that momentum back up if you can ever get it back up.

Jim: Oh, absolutely. And the bottom line, I've been doing this for a long time and I've coached a lot of families through this thing. And I can say pretty confidently. You know, there's even, you know, I'm not a psychologist, you know, I, I think that psychologists could, could explain a little bit more sophisticatedly than me.

Jim: People respond to structure. People like structure and, because they feel safe and enabling which is a really common thing because of the eggshells thing, you know, that we were talking about and all the families have their own different ways of responding to the dysfunctional dynamics, but it all ends up being enabling.

Jim: That's the eggshells thing. Ultimately, that's lack of structure and the user, they don't even realize it you know, unconsciously doesn't feel safe. As opposed to when the family starts setting healthy, informed boundaries. That's a difference between just being jerks and mean, but healthy, informed boundaries, as much as they might not like.

Jim: The boundary that's being set on some level, I think that they do like that. And that's being evidenced in this case, you know, that I'm talking about, you know, the family did a great job, worked really hard for a couple months with me before even starting the treatment. And then I told them I would expect this to happen, expect this to happen.

Jim: Nobody likes being in treatment, and they're going to have their little kerfuffles, and this family was just rock solid in not letting it get phased. And then bottom line is, you know, I sat last night in a session with them and listened to the letter that they got, you know, treatments working very well, and the guy's owning his stuff, and it's all as a result of them staying firm and rock solid.

Mike: Well, and I, I think... Well, I'll personalize this a little. I had my knee replaced about seven weeks ago.

Jim: (laugh)

Mike: And yeah, I know.

Jim: I'm laughing because it's going around a bunch of, I've got two other friends, identical. You probably had it like the same day, probably.

Mike: Well, it was, yeah, it was overdue. Well, the other day I stumbled a little in front of my son.

Mike: And he immediately, he's great, he goes, you okay? And I was more than fine because I already know how stable it is. He doesn't. And so do you also find that the trust in family members, that there's a lag, that the person who's recovering knows what they're feeling, but before the family can trust that, it's going to take a while.

Jim: Absolutely. You know, what comes up when you pose that question. Is two ways of answering that. On one level. Of course, that's a common dynamic in treatment. Clients are frustrated that the family is not trusting them. They're thinking that, "Hey!, I admitted I have a problem! I surrendered. I bit the bullet. I came into this place. I've been here for two weeks now and I'm, you know, I'm doing what's asked of me and all should be forgotten. You know, why don't you trust me now?" And so we, as drug counselors are always having to remind clients. It's perfectly appropriate, or sometimes we have to tell the family because the family, Oh, I'm feeling guilty because I'm not trusting them yet.

Jim: And they're telling me we should trust them. And, and I sound like a jerk sometimes saying this, but I'll say to the client in their face, why should you be trusted? You know, it, it takes, a long time to be trusted. You need to be trustworthy. You need to develop, you know, it's a long process.

Jim: And on the other, the other side of that coin though, is again, ideally, that's why, why I do what I do if I'm able to start working with the families before they intervene, and I'm able, I'm starting to introduce the concept of recovery to them and starting to have them make some progress on their own recovery and expose them to other family members talking about what recovery has meant to them.

Jim: They're actually beginning their recovery process ahead of the client and then I go back to that mobile thing, you know, when I say that if an addiction develops and that's one piece of the mobile getting pulled and the rest of the family responds and all those pieces are going to move, that's a negative skew, you know, in response to an unhealthy dynamic.

Jim: Positive behavior begets positive behavior as well. And so when the family begins their own recovery, as opposed to, you used the phrase, focusing on the identified patient as the problem, that's one of the first things that we have to, it's a tough one to help them see. We've been focusing on the problem, and I start telling it, that's part of the problem.

Jim: It's this awkward, uncomfortable, getting you to turn around and start to look at yourself. And really, it's how have I moved? How's my position on that mobile changed? I've become more aloof, or I've become more shaming, or I've been enabling and compromising my own values by not, you know, wanting to rock the boat.

Jim: Oh, I'm going to start working on that. That's positive stuff. And the same thing works with that mobile. I always tell them, I heard the, in that case, it just, I just heard last night, this is another classic one. Well, you're expecting me to do all this. You know, when are you going to start going to Al Anon and oh boy, did we have a moment with this family where they were able to say, the mom was on the, there was a zoom call, I think, and she says, I've been going to Al Anon and she lifted up her books and she said, see, I've got the books right here and what do you think we've been doing working with Jim for the two and a half months before you even met him?

Jim: We, and I told him last, I told him in my family group, I said, that was a mic drop moment, because he was egging, baiting them, that's a common dynamic, well, I'm doing all this and you're, you know, why aren't you, and they were able to say, We're doing it, we're getting with the program, and that's actually what I teach these families.

Jim: That's the most powerful thing. If you want to, if you want to think you have any control over them, you know that there's another, you know, no, you don't have any control, but if you want to think you have any control, you actually going to Al Anon and working your own recovery program and forgetting about them is actually the best thing that you can do to have a positive impact on their recovery because they realize, Hey, they're not playing the game anymore. And I guess if I want to stay in this system, I need to go catch up with them. And they start running after them in recovery.

Mike: Well, you know that it's great.

Mike: There's, there's that old adage, you know, that in recovery, your problems don't disappear, right? And so there is all this angst that comes up, however. In your new ebook, which is an easy read, very fun you say, you know, but just so you know, no, recovery doesn't have to suck. (laugh)

Jim: You know I have a fairy tale that I've been working with for 30 years.

Jim: It's this incredible, perfect metaphor. People think I made it up myself. It's not. It's a Grimm Brothers fairy tale. that I use as a metaphor for the recovery process. And the long story short, the, you know, the princesses get lost, they're underground, the hero has to go down to the bottom of this well to recover the princesses, to save the princesses, they represent our innocence.

Jim: And it's going down inside ourselves to recover ourselves. And they're, the princes are being held captive by dragons, and he has to slay the dragons, and so that's our personal demons, our inner demons. We have to go within ourself to slay our dragons, but the interesting part of this story, Is, is one, there's more than one dragon.

Jim: He thinks he gets the first one slain. Oh, there's another one. It's bigger. Oh, and then there's another one and it's bigger. And that represents, okay, facing our addiction is just one issue, but we've got other issues and it's not all going to get fixed in this 30 days in treatment, but then he gets some slain, but then he gets sabotaged and he gets stuck down at the bottom of the well and he has to stay there for three years pacing back and forth and back and forth, just doing the long, slow, boring work of smoothing out the battlefield. And I use that to teach, you know, Just because you get sober doesn't mean you can expunge your legal record.

Jim: It doesn't mean the money that you've run up in debt gets automatically written off. Hey, I got a graduation chip from my treatment program. Can I write off the money I ran up on my credit cards through my cocaine use? (chuckle) No, we, and that's the same thing with that trust with the family. It's a long, slow process of cleaning up the battlefield, and I, you know, in my own recovery, I have, you know, the things that I say. One of the biggest things that keeps me sober, I got about five of the biggest things that keeps me sober, but one of them is I'll say, I never want to have to go through the first year of sobriety again, because it's tough.

Jim: They say when we get sober, we start to feel better. We start to feel our anger better, we start to feel our fear better, we start to feel our shame and guilt better, because we haven't been masking ourselves. And yes, we've got a lot of changes that we're dealing with, plus having to give up what's been, we've been relying on to make us feel good.

Jim: And so, you know, I wrote that book, Sobriety Doesn't Have to Suck, because it's really common for people when they first get sober to say, this sucks! I have to give up everything that I've made me fun and all the fun that, you know, went along with it. And my point in that book, Sobriety Doesn't Have to Suck, is, and I found this in my own recovery and I became dedicated after I got sober.

Jim: To helping other people find that it's not about feeling bad and being guilted into recovering and recovering because we have to. But if you, you know, ideally we find something that excites us about it and makes us feel good from inside rather than going outside ourself through the substance, then that's the best motivating thing.

Jim: A carrot in front of the nose. I want more of this good feeling. But I wrote that book to sort of validate, you know, it's understandable. People are pissed off that they're having to get sober. And, that's normal, but there's some things you can do to start finding that good stuff.

Mike: Well, and you, you talk about that in the book, and I, I love it.

Mike: You talk about in your own recovery, early on, you discovered something calls, for those of you who aren't familiar with it, A Course in Miracles, which is a wonderful course and a great book. Just, boy, I tell you, it's, it's terrific. And you say in the book, you have a tip for those who have trouble finding miracles.

Mike: You tell them to look for something else other than a miracle.

Jim: You're leading me on in that?

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: I was listening to that speaker And she said, if miracles are naturally occurring all around you, and if you're not experiencing miracles in your life, there's something wrong with you. And I heard that first year sobriety, I thought, what does that mean?

Jim: And oh, that's deep and profound and I can't come close. And I say in there today, I do understand what that is. And really. It's another one of my stories I work with there is a mouse has given up his eyesight and he's blind and he's sitting on top of the mountain and he's been told there's a big lake right in front of you and if you want the medicine that you're looking for, all you got to do is take a drink from the lake and when we process that, I said, what do you think that's about?

Jim: There's a lake right in front of you. And we sort of say that's the realm of spirit. That's the good stuff. You know, I'm not here to get religious. I really like to, when I talk about spirituality, I like to, you know, preemptively say, you don't have to be religious. You know, when we use that word, that can be a lightning rod word too, but I just sort of translate it.

Jim: Spirituality is good stuff, good feeling stuff. And there's a realm of spirits all around you. And to me, that's the same thing as she was saying. Miracles are all around you. And all you have to do is reach out and take a drink of the lake or look for it. And again, to quote from Alcoholics Anonymous literature, There's a part of that big book they read a lot in meetings, at the end of this passage It says, God could and would if he were sought, and so again, God, I don't, I'm not going religious on it, but the, because the point that I make on that sentence, God could and would if he were sought, I heard an old guy once say, it says, if he were sought, it doesn't say if he were found, and to me, that's the same thing as that lake, if you just, it's the opening of the eyes and looking, and it, I think it's like, completes a circuit.

Jim: If I look for it, I will find it, and what you're implying, I've worked with teenagers for years and years and years, and my whole goal was to try to light them up, get some sort of spark to help them get excited about spiritual seeking or good feeling stuff. And I would say the really simplest thing is, look for coincidences.

Jim: Just watch for coincidences, just, you know, I don't believe in this God stuff, you don't have to believe in that. Next time you come back, tell me what coincidence is, and they always, it never fails, they come back, Jim, you wouldn't believe what happened. You know, I came home that night and you said look for coincidences and we were talking about hawks and there was a hawk sitting in the driveway and it's that to me, it's that little element of mystery that makes us think, is there something more out there?

Jim: But again, it doesn't have to be a heavy religious kind of thing, but I think, I happen to think that that's what we're searching for through our addiction, is we're looking for that mystical experience and when coincidences occur, and again, anybody listening to, I'll put the coincidence challenge, you know?

Jim: Pay attention for the next week and see what kind of coincidences you hear. When you go to support group meetings, you know, one of the most common things, oh, we talked about just what I need, the reading today was just what I needed to hear. And there might be five other people sitting there that didn't get anything out of the reading.

Jim: It was the person who was looking for it. They were paying... oh, what a coincidence. Then, I think that's the beginnings of what I would call the anti drug, you know, that, that good feeling, that excitement. Ooh, I'd like a little more of that!

Mike: Yeah. It's reframing your perspective into looking for the positives.

Jim: Exactly.

Mike: Well, Jim, that's what this is about. Jim's ebook is about this. His work is about this. And I, you know, I love this. We could do nine hours on this. I just, I love, maybe, maybe we will, I'll call you back and we'll do this, do this again.

Jim: I'd love to.

Mike: Yeah. Let's just leave it here though. Families are so important.

Mike: Recovery doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Jim: Absolutely.

Mike: There are links to Jim's resources on the podcast. As you all know the ebook. Thank you, Jim is a free.

Jim: Free download. Just go to my website. There's a link on the homepage of the website jimsavage.net. Sobriety doesn't have to suck!

Mike: (chuckle) We'll put that at the bottom of the podcast. Jim, thanks a lot.

Mike: For those of you who are listening. Thanks for listening. We invite you always to listen to the next time. Until then, stay safe, stay happy, and look for coincidences.