A Healthy, Fresh Start

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: You know, it's not unusual that someone who has experienced a substance use disorder or severe mental illness has had interruptions and difficulties in their employment.

Mike: Re entering the workforce and recovery presents its own obstacles. Well, how to address those challenges and obstacles is our topic today. My guest is Abbie Timmerman, Vice President of the Panaro Group. The Panaro Group is based in Pewaukee, Wisconsin, and is a 100 percent woman owned recruitment firm with over 30 years of expertise in building a recruitment center of excellence.

Mike: Abbie is a talent acquisition leader and business partner with a decade and a half of success delivering effective, targeted talent acquisition and people development strategies and programs for business and industry. Welcome Abbie.

Abbie: Thank you, Mike. I'm happy to be here. I appreciate the invitation.

Mike: Well, this is a topic that, you know, we've done a lot of these and, and all of a sudden I woke up and I said this would be perfect because not everything goes well.

Mike: In a perfect world, Abbie, substance use disorder, mental illness would be addressed, right, before somebody gets in trouble with it or there's an interruption, but the world is not perfect. Lots of people lose their jobs and then in recovery have to reconstruct their work life. So I mean, this is what you guys do for a living.

Mike: Where should somebody start if they've had a pause?

Abbie: This is a great topic, Mike, and thank you for the great introduction. And one thing that's missing is there in there is that I myself have struggled with mental illness for the past 30 years. So depression, anxiety I have firsthand experience with it.

Abbie: So thank you for doing this type of podcast. There needs to be more awareness of mental illness. So with that. Let me help. So we should start out with number one, make sure you're ready. This is a tough journey. Interviews you're going to go up and down with, so make sure you're ready to do that.

Abbie: Number two, make sure you have the support needed. When I say it's a journey, it's because you're going to have interviews, you're going to have people not call you back from an interview, you're going to apply to many jobs, and they're not going to get back to you. So it is a journey where you have to be able to be a little bit resilient.

Abbie: So make sure that it's not going to put you back into a place where you're feeling that you need help. Rely on your network, rely on the people that have helped you. Make sure you know what you want to do. You might not be able to do what you did in the past. Don't overdo it. Don't try to get into something that's going to cause you too much stress.

Abbie: That's going to cause you no work life balance. Ease into it and you'll do great. The next thing is the resume. You're going to need to work on a resume. So there's many ways you can do that. I always say you want to tap into your network of people to help you. There's industries out there such as the Salvation Army or Goodwill Industries that offer assistance with that.

Abbie: And there's a lot of websites these days that offer templates to just guide you through your resume. And there's a lot of them. LinkedIn does it, Indeed does it. I know there's many others, but you do have a lot of help to prepare a resume now these days.

Mike: How do you explain, like, let's say I had to take time off for, to treat my depression or we've had so many guests on here who have had to shut down everything in order to treat themselves.

Mike: How do you explain gaps in a resume?

Abbie: Gaps are, they're there. And the best way that I can explain it is stay positive. I mean, forward focus. Make sure that you're saying I took some time off for wellbeing to take care of myself. And now I'm ready. I'm better and I'm ready to show you know, everybody what I can do. You know, don't make it all about anything bad, turn it to a positive.

Abbie: So you're going to have gaps. And I want to make sure that you know you don't have to say too much, just say you focused on yourself, and what you can provide the employer now that you have recovered.

Mike: Oh, I love that. So in other words, you don't have to do the the A, B and C of the war story of what all you went through, but you also don't lie. Right?

Abbie: Yeah, do not lie. Be honest. Always, always be honest. And one thing I think is great about resumes too, is. You can put them in a timeline or you can put your strengths and what you've achieved and the accomplishments that you've made at the top of it and do a summary of that. And I feel like by doing that, it focuses a little bit more to the employer on what you have achieved, and it takes away a little bit from that timeline.

Abbie: So that's one way I've seen people do this in the past.

Mike: Wait you know what, Abbie, that has you just said something that's never occurred to me in my entire life. So if I'm doing a resume. Because we all think about it in chronological terms, right? Linear.

Abbie: Right.

Mike: Well, you can just list, you're saying you could just list your jobs and what you've accomplished and leave the linear part out.

Abbie: Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

Mike: (laugh) That never occurred to me at all.

Abbie: Highlight what you've done in the past. Highlight your achievements, highlight what's gone well, and then it takes a focus off.

Mike: Well, so now I'm have my resume ready to go and I'm actually lucky enough, right? Or to get an interview.

Mike: How do you handle difficult interview questions? If you did, if you did do it . And it's like, let's say somebody says, I see there are gaps in your work history.

Abbie: You know, that's going to be tough for each person and you can do a couple of things. You can be very minimalistic about it. You can say simply what I said before is I took some time off for personal health.

Abbie: I'm in a better place and ready to show what I can do. You can share a little bit more about it, such as I took some time off because of my health. I feel that I've achieved a lot and I want to show you how I can do that. You can share your experience, what you went through.

Abbie: I went through recovery, I did. Use this with caution because there's some companies that are going to understand, but there's companies that won't. So don't divulge too much. But you can be honest about it, but do it with caution, there is risk to that.

Mike: Since you mentioned yourself individually can I ask you a couple of questions about that?

Abbie: Yeah, absolutely.

Mike: Because that's an interesting part. It would be nice if everybody treated this as a disease but they don't, right? So not all businesses understand what we're talking about today is that you're actually a better employee being in recovery from a mental illness or your addiction than some of the people actually working for 'em currently.

Abbie: I agree. I agree. And you always need to remember that, that what happened is not a fault or it's not a flaw on you. It's made you a better person. It's got you where you are today. So when you're going through the tough times, when you don't have a recruiter call you back after an interview and that you have to go back on everything that you've achieved, what you've went through and where you are because mental illness is dark.

Abbie: I have not gone through addiction recovery, but I'm sure it's similar. It's dark and you have to get through a very dark period. Not everybody has experienced that. That makes you stronger.

Mike: Were you nervous then going back in that you didn't know what to say or how you would say it to begin with?

Abbie: I did not have to interview after I was out. I worked for a couple of companies that I did have to take some time off and came back into the workforce and thankfully they were understanding companies. But getting back into the workforce. When you're going into a new company, you don't know what you're going into.

Mike: Right.

Abbie: There's that question mark. There are opportunities out there called second chance opportunities. So the good news is, is I believe that there is more focus on mental illness than there was 20 years ago when I started my journey with mental illness, but it's not everywhere. But there's a lot of companies who are looking to hire people who do have disability, a mental illness, a recovery addict, and give them a second chance.

Abbie: So I would say that's always a good place to start. Look for those companies.

Mike: Yeah. We've interviewed a bunch of them on this podcast and employment is such a huge thing for somebody in recovery to help them get their feet back on the ground.

Mike: I do know this part. Okay, you're the expert. I do know this part. If I commit a felony, I think I have to disclose that on the application. But otherwise...

Abbie: It's always about, be honest. If they ask you on an application, you do have to be honest about it. You can not disclose or you can, you know, market, not disclose why, or you can be proactive about it and say, I'm filling out this form.

Abbie: I do want you to know that I did do this while this was happening and because of that, I do have this, but I'm in a better place. I always think that it's asking for, you know, letting them know first. So it's not a shock to them.

Mike: Yeah.

Abbie: It's always a good thing. Once again, every company is going to be different, how they react.

Abbie: But I think it's a good way to go.

Mike: Do all companies do a background check?

Abbie: No, they do not. It's very specific to companies. I mean, if you're going to get into transportation or anything with delivery and that they're going to do a driver's license, you know, make sure your driving record is okay.

Abbie: If you're going to get into some other industries. They are going to do background checks if it's governmental, if it's something to do with that, but there are companies where it's contingent on a background check. So not every company does it, but there are companies that do. So you need to be prepared for it.

Mike: What would you tell somebody ahead of time who maybe at 18 or 19 had a DUI and that would show up on a background check, but now they're 30. So this is literally 12 years ago. They don't even think about it anymore. Really?

Abbie: Be honest. Everybody has done things in their past that maybe they aren't thrilled.

Abbie: When I was 18, I wasn't doing what I'm doing now. I was doing a lot that I probably shouldn't have been doing. So but that's where again, let them know, it was 12 years ago. I was young. I made a mistake. But this is what I've learned from it, and this is how I'm going to move forward with it.

Abbie: Always follow up with what you're going to do about it or what you did about it. Make it a positive thing.

Mike: What if substance use affected your work performance or mental illness? And then, how would you address that in a resume? Or do you have to leave that part of employment out because you don't want them to call?

Abbie: If it's a long period of time, no, I mean, don't leave it out of your resume because if they do a check where they're looking at your background history of work, it'll come up. When you do have to do something like that. See if there's any colleagues. Or any coworkers that you worked with that might be able to give you a good recommendation. I always say that it's nice to have a character reference, somebody who can write a letter for you and tell about all the good things that you have done. But if it gets to the point where they're like, I have to have a former company, you might have to come out and be a little bit more honest with them about what happened.

Abbie: That's just my thought.

Mike: This has something to do with the topic, but it's a little on a tangent. I think everybody talks about this. Part of leaving a company sometimes... our relationships. And if I'm not getting along with my superior. And I've had that happen to me where, and trust me, Abbie, it wasn't me.

Mike: Right.

Abbie: Of course, it never is!

Mike: So I don't want to use that person as a reference because we don't have a good relationship. And that makes me a little should I still be using my old boss or can I use a colleague?

Abbie: That's a great question. Everybody has had bad experiences with former supervisors.

Abbie: I mean, if you've had a great run of supervisors, I've been in the workforce since, let's see here, 35 years. And I've had some great managers. I've had some managers that I haven't seen eye to eye with. No, any reference that you're going to do, make sure that you ask them first and that they're going to give you a good reference.

Abbie: If they ask you why you left, which is a common question by a company, be honest. I enjoyed working there. However, I didn't see eye to eye, and we just decided to part ways. Be honest about it. Companies and interviewers know, recruiters, that not everybody... Now, if it's the past five jobs, then you're going to have to look at it a little bit differently, but don't say negative things about the employer.

Abbie: I can't emphasize that enough. Don't bash the employer. Don't put fault on them. Say you didn't see eye to eye, and you decided to part ways.

Mike: Now that's going to take practice, right? Because we're not good at this. We don't have to do this 10 times a week. If you do it 10 times in your lifetime that would be a lot.

Mike: So you're going to be nervous.

Abbie: That's so true. You're going to be nervous. And it's so easy for me to talk about it because I've been doing this for so long. Being nervous is okay. Be prepared. Don't go into an interview without knowing about the company. What they do, who you're interviewing with. I mean, there are so many ways that you can see who you're interviewing with these days.

Abbie: LinkedIn is a great example. People's profiles are on LinkedIn. You can do research on it. So there's going to be nervous, but the more prepared you are to go in knowing about the company in that. I think the nerves get less a little bit, but I think it'd be unrealistic to not be nervous for an interview

Mike: And turning it into a positive.

Mike: As you said, it's really important, isn't it? In other words, you're now healthy. You're now taking care of yourself.

Abbie: Give yourself a pat on the back for what you've gone through. And, you know, I can't talk for every company that, you know, they're going to understand they're going to be open to it. But, there are companies out there that will.

Mike: I think sometimes people, whether it's just adding on, or if it's the root cause, the job itself can cause anxiety, stress, and issues. Health issues and mental health issues. So can you reset? You don't have to go into the same line of business that you were in before or we're even educated in.

Mike: How do you address that? If you wanna take a right-hand turn.

Abbie: Take it. Yeah. Take it in sections. Start out with what is it that you love to do? What brings you happiness. What's something that you feel that you would focus on and then take it into how much of it can I take?

Abbie: How much can I do? Because you don't want to just jump into employment, get any job and jump into it for the reason of I need a job because you want to find the job that's going to give you enjoyment. And not stress you out too much. There are jobs out there. You don't want to get into being a supervisor of a team of 10.

Abbie: That's a lot of stress. You want to get into something that's going to work with your recovery and make you feel good at the same time. Don't allow it to set you back. Whatever you want to do, research it, look into it. Maybe talk to some other people are in the industry and see how is it?

Abbie: You can go back into what you've done, but think about it. How did I feel when I was in that job? How did it make me feel? Did it trigger me into where I was? You know, you want to avoid that at all costs. And, I have left a job because it was putting me so down that I could barely even get up and go to work the next day.

Abbie: I needed to have a paycheck. So I did it. And the end result of it was. I bottomed out, I bottomed out and I had to build myself back up again. Don't do that. You've come too far. And there's so much help you can get out there now. Focus on yourself.

Mike: That takes some work, doesn't it?

Mike: Because it would be natural to want to jump back in salary wise without necessarily taking care of yourself. So knowing what you can handle is going to take some work too.

Abbie: Yes, it is. You will need supports. How I did it is I had a lot of support and I'm very blessed with that.

Abbie: I hope listeners are but there are some that maybe aren't. Find somebody who can support you with that. But always make sure that you are focusing on what's best for you. Yeah, you need support, and you need to understand that if you left a job making X amount of money and you were doing great, but you were stressed out and you had no work life balance and it, but you're not going to, you don't want to go back there.

Abbie: Go back to school. Maybe get a little bit of education on some different things to do. Start in a different profession. But remember, anytime you start in a different profession, you don't just walk in at mid level, you do have to learn up to it. And there's a lot of tools that you get there can get you there.

Abbie: However, you have to be realistic. So be okay with it. Don't stress yourself out. But no, yeah, there's probably going to be a little bit of a pay gap. You'll get back there. You'll get back there.

Mike: That work life balance, I think, is really important. How does one go about setting boundaries to take care of yourself when things are being heaped upon you?

Mike: We're now seeing at the federal level a whole bunch of anxiety and people losing their jobs. So, in other words, if I'm working all of a sudden tomorrow with 25 percent less employees, that's going to create a little bit of stress.

Abbie: A little bit of stress. Absolutely. The key thing you said there is take care of yourself.

Abbie: How do you take care of yourself? The good thing that's happening these days is a lot of companies are big believers in work life balance. They want you to work, but they believe in taking time off for yourself. They have personal days. They have health days. They give you incentives for maybe doing healthy things.

Abbie: Find companies like that that are gonna be open to it. It doesn't mean that you can take every day off, but it means that they're gonna be more forgiving and give you time to focus on your life yourself and all that. When I started working, you worked eight to five and you took a half an hour lunch.

Abbie: You didn't go away for doctor appointments. You didn't go away for anything. You were there. And fast forward to now, there's so much more flexibility for you to be able to focus on yourself. But you have to make sure you are going to the right companies. It's okay to ask an interview. Tell me a little bit about your culture.

Abbie: Tell me how you embrace work life balance. That's important to me. It's important to a lot of people.

Mike: I think people are afraid to ask questions about the company. But that's a good thing, right?

Abbie: It's a great thing. When I interview somebody and if I ask them, what questions do you have and they don't ask anything. To me, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

Abbie: You know, I've interviewed you. I've told you some things, but you have to have questions for me. I always go into an interview with questions. Why do you like working here? Why have you stayed here? Tell me how you got into this company. You know, all of that. People like to talk about themselves.

Abbie: Talk about, you know, talk about them or how they got into it's okay to ask about, tell me about your culture. Culture is a huge thing right now. It's culture. Benefits are becoming bigger, but culture is becoming defined as a really important part of an employer.

Mike: Do you think that's generational? Is that driven by the younger people?

Abbie: I think it is. I do, because you go back to, you know, 1990s when I was getting into work. My parents went to work and they stayed there for 40 years and they went eight to five. And that was the mindset. And that mindset was instilled into me, the Gen X. So that's my mindset, but the mindsets change as the generations come around and it absolutely has something to do with that.

Abbie: It absolutely does because you get set in your ways. Let's be honest, to me, working eight to five is just kind of something that I know it took me time to think, Oh, I can really take off and and go to a doctor appointment or something during the day. It's still hard for me to do because I'm so ingrained in me, but embrace it, embrace it.

Mike: I hope they won't mind me doing this, but one of my kids has a friend who just interviewed and I admired this so much. In the interview process said, yeah, what you're offering, I would like more PTO, not a ton, but advocating for yourself in the initial stages is not a bad thing because that's where the bar is set.

Mike: Right. In that first initial stages.

Abbie: Yes. Advocate, negotiate. PTO is the one thing that I feel is always negotiable. Let me go back on that. Depending, it's always negotiable, . We work with a lot of candidates where the PTO is something that needs to be adjusted. There's some companies that you earn a day for every year that you're there or something.

Abbie: Yeah. You know, two weeks, you know, make sure that you're getting some time. PTO is probably a little bit more negotiable sometimes than salary, depending on the company. I feel that that's the way, but negotiate it. I always say, what do you have to lose? But again, focus on what's going to be best for you.

Abbie: Focus on making sure it's going to be the right company in that, but negotiate PTO.

Mike: And how would you handle it when you're working? If you feel yourself, we all have ups and downs. This is the time of year where for those of you listening, we're in the tail end of winter or, you know, we like to call it spring, right?

Mike: And it's hard for some of us. It's cold. Yesterday it was three. So, you know, if you find yourself in a dip, how do you advocate for yourself so you don't slip below that level where it's going to affect your work?

Abbie: Coming from a depression side, personally, this is the worst time of year for me. After Christmas.

Abbie: You know, it's the depths of January, the depths of February, the days are shorter. You wake up, it's dark. You go to bed, it's dark. Those are the difficult times. If you're having a hard time, think of how much can I handle? Know that going into any job, how much can I handle?

Abbie: And if you're getting into a situation where you feel like I'm overloaded, the only thing that you can do is speak up about it and say, here's where I'm at and I need you to know this and go from there. Honesty is great, but make sure that you're just focusing on yourself and how much you can handle.

Abbie: I wouldn't say have it be something that you're doing all the time, but you can speak up about it.

Mike: Yeah, because if the employer is not going to be responsive to that, then maybe it's time to begin looking again, right?

Abbie: The one thing you want to do is that's why I say prepare yourself for a couple, you can't know everything.

Abbie: I mean, the internet, Google. AI these days. You can learn a lot about a company before going in. Make sure you're doing your research and knowing what type of company is this. Are they a culture driven or are they a company that is more driven on the nine to five work. So know going in and know how much you can handle.

Abbie: That's why the first answer is prepare, prepare to go in. You don't want to be leaving every job because in that I feel that it gives you a little bit of an excuse. So if you're feeling and you know, like it's overwhelming, do what you can to step back, raise your hand, but then don't necessarily say it's the next job.

Abbie: See what you can do. If you think it's too much, well, then you have to, it's time to go.

Mike: And your recovery support network can also be your employment support network.

Abbie: You have to have people to lean on, lean on your recovery network, lean on your friends, lean on your family. You can't do this without that.

Abbie: In my personal opinion, even if you have one person who you can rely on, rely on them. My support network, thankfully I had a great support network that I've leaned into for a long time. I still do. So have that support network. It's important. And know your limits, know your boundaries. Know, your boundaries.

Abbie: That's why going in part time, easing yourself into a job, volunteering, stuff like that. There are different ways to do that, but don't get in over your head.

Mike: And I'll let you go with this, but I would think in any climate that patience and perseverance is critical because it, it may not, it may be.

Mike: The first one you get is the one you stay in 20 years, but it may take a while to reconstruct.

Abbie: Recovering from anything is difficult. And persevering through it, from my experience, it's hard to do because your mind's telling you, you know, I can't do this. You can if it's the right time and place for you.

Abbie: But, don't push yourself too much, but know that you've gone through so much. You can do a lot, but don't do it too much to put you back where you were. That's what's most important. Move forward, forward focusing. If you feel like you're starting to slip back, raise your hand and make sure that you're taking care of yourself.

Abbie: Most importantly, just don't use it as an excuse all the time. Because I know, personally, you can. You know, oh, this is a little bit too much for me. Back when I was starting to struggle with this, I would make excuses. It's not my fault. I just don't, I just don't feel good. I don't want to do it. I felt fine.

Abbie: I just didn't want to do it because of my mental illness. So persevere, not always easy. It's probably gonna be the toughest thing that you have to do.

Mike: Well, and I said that would be the last one, but you just, that also means continuing to get help so that you're aware when you're putting things off and when you're actually taking care of yourself.

Abbie: Never stop getting help, ever stop getting help.

Abbie: I still get help and I'm in, 30 years ago is when I was first diagnosed and if I didn't, I would slip back. So I still get help. Please never step away from help. You might feel like you can still do it. (laugh)

Abbie: Go to your network, go to your friends. Talk to them about it.

Mike: This is an area, you know, I've done a lot of podcasts where I know the topic.

Mike: I didn't know this one as nearly as well. This has been so informative. Abbie, thank you so much.

Abbie: Thank you, Mike. I couldn't have been happier to talk about such a wonderful topic. So you know, everybody go get 'em. You can do it. Just be prepared. And I know that there's ups and downs.

Mike: That's great. As you know who listened, there are links to the Panaro Group attached to the podcast.

Mike: And for everybody listening, we invite you always to listen at any time you're able. Until then, stay safe, and let's see, since it's basketball season, keep shooting until the ball goes through the hoop.