Brick by Brick

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting, the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition, and by a grant from the State of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality Real Talks reminding you that opioids are powerful drugs and that one pill can kill.

Mike: I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Libby Wipperfurth grew up in a home of conflicting boundaries and messages. The turmoil led to deep depression, anxiety, years of alcoholism. Hard to believe you look so young. After several attempts to stay sober failed, she found herself at a tipping point.

Mike: She's with us today to talk about how she put her life back together brick by brick by brick. Libby is a mom, a wife, a peer specialist, and an author whose book, Daily Journal Building A Strong Foundation One Brick At A Time is linked on the podcast blurb. Welcome Libby.

Libby: Hey, Mike. I'm grateful to be here. Thank you for having me.

Mike: Well see, isn't that nice? That's part of your journaling book, right? You're grateful. So I always ask this first, how long have you been in recovery?

Libby: I just celebrated nine years alcohol free on May 18th, so that is 3,309 days as of today. It seems very long when you put it out in days, but it doesn't seem that long ago that my life was completely different and you know, it was hard.

Libby: I didn't, most days I didn't think I would make it through the day, and now I'm living the life that I couldn't have even imagined at that point in my life.

Mike: Well, when you talk about recovering brick by brick doing it one day at a time, keeping track of the days, I think is a really good idea.

Libby: Yeah. And I mean especially at the beginning, you're going second by second.

Mike: Yes.

Libby: You know, just trying to get through. And so each day we make it to another day is a good day.

Mike: I don't know if you've probably heard this, I'm sure people who are listening have heard various stories.

Mike: But one of the more remarkable ones, when I was a young man doing family therapy, I had a woman say to me that she literally stood in her kitchen, set the oven timer for five minutes and held onto the stove.

Libby: Oh wow.

Mike: Yeah. And then reset it, reset it, reset it. So, you know, recovery can be a challenge.

Mike: Well, let's go back. I listened to a talk you have on YouTube, and I flinched when I heard you talk about your family's love language. What was it?

Libby: It was a love language of sarcasm and insults.

Mike: Oh God. Yeah. That, that's cringe worthy, but I wondered when I heard that, I went, okay. Ditto. Right.

Libby: And, you know, it's all fun and games, but, you know, words hurt and you know, when you're growing up like that, it's kind of, it takes a toll on your self-esteem and you're worthy.

Mike: It does, it does. You know, when Libby, I work with kids and I ask them all the time how old they were when they realize the difference between funny and mean.

Mike: And they all say around the age of four or five. So the two words I really hate are just kidding.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: You know, and when a dad or mom says, just kidding, eh, it doesn't, it still stings and you remember it, right?

Libby: Yeah. Yeah. It can be very hurtful. I feel like a huge part of our population grew up that way.

Libby: It was kind of the norm. Even like the TV shows and things like that in the eighties, nineties, like Roseanne, Married with Children. Those were our family shows. And it was very dysfunctional families.

Mike: Oh, God, I've talked about that there. It's just so unhealthy.

Mike: And then people picked it up and even say, I'm bilingual. I speak sarcasm as well.

Libby: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: So who was it? Was it your mom, dad, both, your brother?

Libby: Mainly my father. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as well which was my father's parents. That, yeah, just a lot of that joking around, sarcasm, but you know, there's always a little layer of truth with those jokes.

Mike: Yeah. Did it get when they were drinking?

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Did it get a little bit quicker? Meaner?

Libby: Yeah, but it was always with a laugh. So you're not being mean. It's fun, you know, don't be mad, it was just a joke and, yeah.

Mike: Yeah. I remember you know, if you say something, especially depending your age of development, especially to a young girl from a dad, that's really impactful, isn't it?

Libby: Yeah. Yeah. There was an instance where I got my first sports bra (laughs) and I was made to try it on in front of the family, and then I got ridiculed for having mosquito bites and that, you know, that whole, you know, experience has stuck with me. And, you know, just all those little digs can really do damage on someone.

Mike: Oh God, that's, yeah, I'd be willing to bet there's people listening to this, just shaking their head right now in the same way.

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: You know, I've done numerous podcasts with people, experts, people who work with folks who are therapists, who have all said that many, many times shame is put on us by those who are supposed to care the most about us, and it affects you.

Mike: So then I heard you say that therefore. One of your foundational bricks?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Was that you just don't matter?

Libby: Yeah. I didn't feel that I fit in with my family. I didn't feel like I belonged with, you know, kind of a lot of the jokes and things like that. I just didn't feel emotionally and mentally taken care of.

Libby: So yeah, I just felt like I didn't matter. And growing up feeling that, you know. Your family is your, everything. You know nothing else but your family. So to feel that you don't belong in your own family was just devastating. I had no sense of who I was, who I was supposed to be. Just kind of felt very lost and...

Mike: Not real confident?

Libby: Yeah. Kind of nowhere to turn.

Mike: So predictably, right?

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: When did you first start drinking?

Libby: Alcohol was a huge part of just the day-to-day life in our household. Both my parents are daily drinkers. My grandparents are daily drinkers as well. The first time I remember like taking a drink on my own, kind of sneaking a drink was about 12.

Libby: You know, every household had alcohol in it. There was a point in middle school that me and a group of friends, even like, had screwdrivers before we went to school.

Mike: In middle school?

Libby: Yeah. And like, you know, parents just thought we were taking our cups of orange juice on our walk to school.

Libby: You know, it was just, it was, just so you know, we're in Wisconsin, "We've Been Out Drinking Your State Since 1948." Right?

Mike: Yeah. Right. I'm laughing because anytime I see a teenager with orange juice, my assumption is it's not orange juice.

Libby: Right. Yeah. I never liked orange juice, except for if there was alcohol in it. So. (laughs)

Mike: Well, you said they were, you were around it all the time.

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: And your first drink was a 12. Well, what about earlier? Were you allowed to sip? Did they give you sips?

Libby: Yeah, we would've like sips every now and then. We did a lot of, my cousins and I kind of like pretending to drink and all of those things.

Libby: We would have our sparkling cider you know, and all the holidays, things like that. I used to go to the bar quite a bit with my grandparents and I'd get my kitty cocktail and they'd have their drinks and, you know, I was just kind of. That's the way it was. You drank when you were happy, you drank when you were sad.

Libby: If there was something to celebrate, let's get a drink. Oh, you're having a bad day. Let's get a drink. It was just, that was how you lived

Mike: And coped.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Well, I chuckled. Your grandparents had a phrase for, you made like a lot of our guests, you made drinks for your grandparents.

Mike: What did they call? I don't remember now.

Libby: Yeah, they would say, fix my liver.

Mike: Fix my liver.

Libby: Yep.

Mike: My god.

Libby: Time to go make them a drink. And, you know, they were happy and I felt I was being a good kid. I was doing what I was told. Which was I think a big part of my upbringing was, I felt that I had to do as I was told, I wasn't going to be loved or accepted unless I was doing, as I was told. So I, you know, got the, the good girl syndrome and just if I was doing what I was told I was okay.

Mike: What was their drink of choice?

Libby: Typically like brandy and water, so it was pretty easy to make.

Mike: Yes.

Mike: And for those of you who aren't in Wisconsin, we are the brandy capital of the world, so.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Not unfamiliar.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: And then as a teenager, you hit the teenage trifecta, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Drinking, cutting, and eating problems.

Libby: Yeah, I would abuse diet pills. That was back when they had the, was that ephedrine.

Mike: Sure yeah.

Libby: And then just really disordered eating with dieting and things like that. Later on, after high school, I was a bulimic for a little bit. And a lot of it was like, especially kind of like the cutting in that it was, I wasn't able to necessarily numb always with alcohol.

Mike: Mm.

Libby: There was other things I would find a way to numb myself with.

Mike: Did it work?

Libby: Oh God, no! (laughs) If anything, it, you know, it only made it worse. I mean it worked temporarily until the buzz would wear off and then I would end up feeling worse 'cause those feelings were still there. And then on top of that, then you're having either the hangover or the withdrawal symptoms and things like that.

Libby: And with like alcohol being a depressant, it made my depression even worse.

Mike: And so we're talking through middle school now and high school.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Can I ask, where did you cut? Arms, legs?

Libby: Typically actually my abdominal area.

Mike: Mm mm.

Libby: I feel I was very talented at keeping a lot of my secrets hidden.

Mike: That's why I was asking.

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Yeah. So nobody knew.

Libby: No.

Mike: Did people suspect?

Libby: I think they knew or suspected like the drinking and some possible drug use, but nothing else.

Mike: Well, but, but who were you hanging with? They had to, you know.

Libby: My friends they drank and used substances as well, but I kept a lot of the other stuff just to myself.

Mike: So even your friends you were hanging with didn't realize you were cutting or necessarily bulimic or?

Libby: No. I didn't share much with others. Which that's a huge part of my recovery now. I feel talking is the best thing. But it was just, you didn't talk about things back then.

Libby: You know? It was just the time of there wasn't many divorced families. There was, you know, the mental health, all the stigma around that. We, you just didn't talk about things so. A lot of my friendships were very, the superficial level where you didn't get deep into what was going on at home. It was, you know, we had fun together, we'd party together.

Libby: But then other than that, there was not that deep connection.

Mike: That's always such an interesting turn to me to partying, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: It almost like, oh yeah, it's, it's a good thing right to party.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: And then in adulthood you added blackouts and promiscuous. Yeah. Right.

Libby: Yep. Yeah, I was also taking antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication which a lot of those you're not supposed to have alcohol with.

Libby: So yeah, I was kind of like a zombie and I would just not remember a lot of things. You know, I would spend a lot of my mornings hungover trying to figure out what I did or said the night before, you know, going through my text messages and hoping I didn't, you know, no one's mad at me and. It's just, it's a lot to, it just adds onto the anxiety and the depression.

Libby: It's a vicious cycle of, okay, what did I do wrong now? [inaudible] Then you start drinking again.

Mike: There's a lot of people who are maybe listening who have never had a blackout.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: So, and they can't fathom having one and having another. So do you remember your first one?

Mike: Was it when you were young or?

Libby: I would probably more into like young twenties, I would say.

Mike: And did it scare you?

Libby: A little bit, but I feel a lot of it was that I just felt it was just normal.

Mike: Hmm.

Libby: That it was, you know, oh, you just drank too much that night. Maybe next time don't drink as much.

Libby: Don't you don't drink hard alcohol that time.

Mike: Yeah, it wasn't the behavior, it's the alcohol, right?

Libby: Yeah. So I would come up with excuses or try something different next time.

Mike: Along the way your folks broke up.

Libby: Yeah. So my parents separated when I was probably about eight. It was told to us that my mom had an affair and was leaving us for this other person and wanted nothing to do with us.

Libby: So that was part of my large foundation of not feeling like I mattered. My own mother doesn't want me, and I don't know the full story, things like that. But you know, as a child, that's what my narrative was, was that my mom doesn't love me and I don't matter. That relationship ended up not working out.

Libby: And then she wanted to have some custody with us, but she lived in a different state at that point. So it was a lot of back and forth and feeling forced to go somewhere to be with someone who I didn't think wanted to be with me. It was just, it was rough as a child kind of feeling like where do I belong? You know, no one loves me. Now I have to miss out on all this time with my friends to go hang out with this person that doesn't love me.

Mike: When I heard you talk about that you and your brother got, your dad just stuck on a bus?

Libby: Yep.

Libby: So by the time she was outta state there, they had a very toxic divorce and weren't able to co-parent very well. So he was tired of having to meet her halfway and you know, an hour and a half away. So he would put us on a bus and that would take us there and yeah, I can't fathom doing that now with my children.

Libby: But (laughs).

Mike: Yeah.

Libby: This was no cell phones, no. No Life 360. Yeah. No, nothing. It was just like, all right, see you Sunday, and hope that they made it (laughs).

Mike: So did your mom then put you back on the bus or drive you halfway and put you back on the bus?

Libby: So she would drive halfway and then put us back on the bus.

Mike: Wow. Wow.

Mike: And your brother, was he a companion at this point or was he an antagonist?

Libby: He was definitely an antagonist. He was the one in charge on these trips, but he was more of the big brother bully kind of relationship.

Mike: Wow. Wow. I love the story. The story is people can identify with that, right?

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: When did you first say enough and try to get into recovery?

Mike: Or did something happen where you got forced into it?

Libby: It was more, a couple of instances were more forced, I would say. The incident before I went into inpatient rehab, I was at my worst, I was drinking all day. I had to have alcohol in my system, otherwise I would go through severe withdrawals.

Libby: And I was intoxicated at work and ended up passing out in my car on my lunch break.

Mike: Wow.

Libby: So the security guard had tried to wake me up and had called the ambulance. It was a whole scene. I was very fortunate that my work was supportive in helping me get into recovery. I did an intensive outpatient treatment at that time.

Libby: Was doing well and stayed sober for just about to my 30 days and treated myself to a Long Island to celebrate and lost that recovery. (laughs) And then just kind of a few weeks of just on and off the wig and going to the hospital for withdrawals. And then I was finally able to get into an inpatient facility so that it was somewhat forced, but it was, I had been wanting and knowing I needed help for probably a good year prior to that point.

Mike: A lot of people take multiple times. Multiple at bats before they get a hit, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Talk about that. What do you think you missed the first few times?

Mike: Or what do you think you didn't get that it didn't stick or, you know what I'm asking? Yeah.

Libby: Yeah. I think it's a combination of thing. You are surrounded with the people, places and things. You know, you have to kind of change all of that. You can't just take away the substance and try to go back to your normal life.

Libby: So I think that is a huge part of it as well as the why. Try figuring out the why of why you're using what you're trying to numb, what you're trying to avoid, those types of things. And until you kind of discover what your why is and try to work through that. Then I don't think that the, the addiction part can go away as well.

Mike: Well, okay. So talk about that because that's really interesting. So now you're, let's say you're sober, right?

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: And all of these feelings just come washing over you like a tsunami. And where's your experience coping with them? Where's your role models for coping with them?

Libby: Yeah, none.

Mike: So, right. How do you learn that?

Libby: For me, I was very fortunate with my first job out of recovery was with Journey Mental Health. So I was able to like fully immerse myself in recovery. It was my work, it was my life after work. I was able to surround myself with positive role models. I really dug into trying to learn what's wrong with me.

Libby: So I just went into researching and kind of self-taught myself a lot of things and then just with the experience of my own employment and things like that. But not everyone is that fortunate. Having a good support system is huge. So whether that be a therapist or your recovery groups, things like that, you have to surround yourself with a different type of people now.

Mike: You mentioned the TV shows from the eighties you grew up with and then your own family. How do you learn how to have a healthy relationship?

Libby: Lots of... (laughs)

Mike: Trial and error?

Libby: Yes. My husband and I have been together for 12 years now, and he was with me when I was at my worst. He helped me get better has stood by me through everything, but we are both learning how to have healthy relationships together.

Libby: A lot of it is learning to have those difficult discussions. Knowing that all relationships do take work. It's not just your romantic relationships, it's your friendships, it's your coworkers, things like that. Any type of relationship you want, you have to put in some sort of work.

Mike: How long did it take you, did you feel like you had to walk on eggshells because of all the abandonment you had felt and the unworthiness growing up?

Mike: And how long before you could trust that he wasn't gonna bolt out the door or, or that you weren't gonna bolt out?

Libby: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, he would say, I love you, and I would be like, are you sure?

Mike: Yeah. Right.

Libby: That was my automatic response. Probably a few years into my sobriety is when I really was like.

Libby: Okay. He really means it like he's not going anywhere, but it was so much of my foundation was that I don't matter. So it's hard to unlearn those things.

Mike: Did he also come, can I ask about his family?

Libby: Yeah, he his parents are divorced as well. Definitely not as toxic of an upbringing as I had, but I think with just the, his own parents divorce, he, I'm his second wife, so he had his own, his a divorce prior.

Libby: So I think we've had some similar situations, but. And he is seven years older than me, so he has a little bit more of a maturity level than I do. (laughs)

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what did you think the first time he complimented you?

Libby: That he wanted to get some. (laughs)

Mike: (laughs) Interesting.

Libby: I was so, you know, I'm so used to like, my mind was still in that...

Mike: Manipulative, right?

Libby: Right. You know, like if I want a man to love me, I need to have sex with him.

Mike: Yeah.

Libby: Was where my brain was at at that point. And he is actually one of, he was the first relationship that I didn't like rush into having sex with, it was kind of at the point in my life where I was like, nope I need to take things slow and.

Libby: Here we are 12 years later.

Mike: Wow. And and how many kids?

Libby: We have four. We're a blended family, so he has three sons and I have a daughter.

Mike: Oh, that's great.

Libby: And they're all, all teenagers.

Mike: Really?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Those of you watching on YouTube. I'm so bad with ages. It's just so sad. You have a teenage daughter?

Libby: Yep.

Mike: Wow.

Libby: She, she's 16.

Mike: How old?

Libby: 16.

Mike: Oh my gosh. Talk about her for a second. Not disclosing stuff. But, given how you grew up.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: What did you do so that she didn't go through the same insults and sarcasm?

Libby: Well, it didn't start that way. One of the things that I heard a lot growing up was, you know, I brought you into this world. I can take you out. And so I would jokingly say that to her and things like that, but it's. I think, you know, until we know better, we can't do better. So once we start knowing that things are not necessarily okay, then we can change 'em. And I feel a huge part of my parenting is based off of what.

Libby: I, the opposite of what I had is I wanna be the mom that I didn't have. So I really put in effort of trying to make, have conversations and check in with her and things like that. The things that I didn't get growing up, I try to make an effort to do. But it's not easy 'cause it doesn't come natural when you, you know,

Mike: Not even now?

Libby: It, it does now. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Does she believe you now when you compliment her?

Libby: Yes. (laughs)

Mike: That's awesome. What do you think? I think it's intellectually lazy. I love what you just said. Once you know better, you can do better, right?

Libby: Mm-hmm.

Mike: There's a lot of people who just go, oh, well.

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: And use it as an excuse to not do better, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: And that's lazy,

Libby: Right.

Mike: It takes work, right?

Libby: It does. Yeah. And it goes for everything, nobody knows everything. Nobody knows what they're doing. We're all just trying to take it day by day. And once we know things, then we can do better.

Libby: And just be better all around.

Mike: Yeah. So are you still in contact with your folks and your brother and how, how's that relationship?

Libby: I have very minimal contact. At the beginning of my recovery I wanted to kind of discuss things about my childhood, and it was a lot of it was just shut down of, you know, it's the past, get over it.

Libby: They didn't really wanna look at themselves or their roles and what I was going through. And so it just kind of became. We just don't talk about it. And it's a very superficial relationship. And you know, we see each other once a year at Christmas and that's about it. And honestly, it has been better for my mental health that way.

Libby: At the beginning I would reach out and, you know, text and not get responses back and that would be really painful. But I'm at a place now where I know that they need to take care of themselves as well. And we all just need to do what's best for ourselves.

Mike: So you set the boundaries?

Libby: Yes. And they did not necessarily appreciate those.

Mike: Try to guilt you?

Libby: Yeah. Yep. My mom more so than anyone else.

Mike: Yeah. How do you keep them from guilting you, because that's a discussion we've had a number of times here, which is that whole blood is thicker than water is a lot of garbage in a lot of ways.

Libby: Right. It's not easy. It's still like that they're your family. You still wanna fit in and belong and feel loved by them. But I feel that i'm at a spot now where I know that they're where they're at, and that's okay. And I just need to do what's best for myself and respect them where they're at, and respect myself where I'm at.

Mike: Yeah. So you passed them in maturity a while back?

Libby: Yeah, I believe so. (laughs)

Mike: (laughs) That's great. Well, and then one of your ways of coping was you began to journal, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: Talk about your journaling. What did journaling do for you?

Libby: So journaling really just kind of helped me get out of my head. I was really good at catastrophizing and being like, you know, one bad thing happened. It's a whole bad day.

Libby: Being able to take a break and kind of work through my day and realize that like, no, that was just one bad moment. It wasn't a bad day. It really helped rewire my brain and get rid of those automatic negative thoughts. And now my brain like automatically goes to the positive.

Libby: After doing this for so long.

Mike: And so you ended up writing the journaling book, and it's a step-by-step go-to guide, right?

Libby: Yep.

Mike: And it focuses on what?

Libby: Gratitude, affirmations. There's a reflection portion of kind of looking back at your day, looking at the good things that happened.

Libby: How did you take care of yourself that day? It really helped me also get into a routine, which I feel is very important in my wellbeing. Kind of how did you take care of yourself for the day? I feel a lot of us put ourselves last, so making sure that we kind of reflect back on what we did for ourselves and how we took care of ourselves is important as well.

Mike: That's great. And do you do it every day?

Libby: Give or take? (laughs) I try. There's some nights where I'll do the journal I have set up is kind of a short little part in the morning and a short little part at night. There's some nights I just go to bed without even looking at it. There's some weekends I don't do it.

Libby: But most days I do it.

Mike: I ask a lot of questions about this 'cause I'm not that person, right?

Libby: Yeah.

Mike: That's not my personality. It's never been. I tried it and it didn't work for me, but I like people who are that organized and can keep those things together. I'm much more burst of energy, get a lot done and kick back.

Mike: So doing that daily stuff wouldn't work for me.

Libby: Yeah. I think one thing that has helped for it to work for me was that it's, it's only meant to be a few minutes. I was coming across some other journals that I was doing that. It was too much. Like I wanna just be able to just do it for a couple minutes and then move on with my day.

Libby: I don't have a half hour every morning to sit and think about a variety of things. I have a billion other things I have to do in the morning, so it didn't fit into my schedule. So I ended up kind of creating something that worked for me.

Mike: You don't have the time to curl up with your feet under you with a cup of hot tea.

Libby: No. (laughs) I already get up at five. I can't get up any earlier.

Mike: (laughs) I know every time I see somebody doing that, I'm like, well, you can't have too many problems then right?

Libby: Right.

Mike: And I found this out too. You're a certified peer specialist.

Libby: Yeah. I became a certified peer specialist back in 2018. Back then there wasn't too many peer support specialists in the recovery teams.

Libby: So it's really nice to see that it's becoming more popular in recovery teams. I haven't been practicing in the last few years. I had a job with the VA and I'm not a veteran, so I wasn't able to do peer support through the VA. So it's something that I would like to get back into maybe someday, but in the meantime, I'm trying to help in other ways with like my journal and my book.

Mike: Yeah. And you're writing a book?

Libby: Yes. Yes. I am working on writing my memoir which will kind of go through my life and then go into my brick theory. So, which is essentially that we are all created brick by brick. Everything from, every interaction we have, everything that's been passed down to us, everything creates us, you know, even down to like a cellular level if you really wanna get into it.

Libby: We're literally built brick by brick. And kind of going into our interactions with others too, like are you helping build someone up or are you tearing someone down?

Mike: Love that.

Libby: Yeah. So I try to carry that with me with any interactions I have. Like, am I helping build this person up and making their lives better, or am I somehow destroying them.

Mike: Yeah. It's a hard time to build people up. I mean, it's an easy thing to do, but boy, are we surrounded with tearing people down, aren't we?

Libby: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, just even simple interactions with people at like the grocery store.

Mike: Yeah.

Libby: You're the person checking you out. Have eye contact with them, smile, thank them, you know, chat with them.

Libby: A lot of people are not doing those things as often and you know, it tears people down. If someone already is having low self-esteem and then someone comes up to them and doesn't treat them well, it just knocks 'em down even more.

Mike: Well, when you get your book done, let me know.

Libby: Oh, for sure.

Mike: We'll publicize it and I'll have you back down and we'll talk a little bit more about the book.

Libby: Yeah, I would love that.

Mike: This has been great. I really appreciate you being so open. I think it helps a lot. I've taken a bunch of people to meetings over the years and it's so funny when somebody says, how did they know all about me?

Mike: And it's like, because it's so in common, right? We all have so much in common.

Libby: Yeah. I think the more we can share with others, the more that we can heal each other.

Mike: That's a great takeoff statement that is.

Mike: Well, thanks for your inspiring story, your honesty.

Mike: And for those of you listening, watching I hope that you find love and courage and support wherever you are. Thanks for listening, be safe, and if you're struggling, keep trying. Just keep building it one brick at a time.

Mike: Yeah, one brick at a time.