Culture is Contagious

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting, the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition, and by a grant from the State of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality Real Talks, reminding you that opioids are powerful drugs and that one pill can kill. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Establishing and maintaining a healthy, vibrant creative school or workplace culture is a challenging, but an incredibly rewarding task, and that's only part of what my guest today does. Peggy Eserkaln is founder of educational improvisation, as well as an award-winning educator, an author, speaker, entertainer, and a mom with a master's degree, and as she says, a professionally trained funny bong.

Mike: She's also a really good friend. Welcome Peggy.

Peggy: Hi Mike. I'm so excited.

Mike: I know this is fun for me because we've known each other for a long time and we did this special. I tried to do something the day before Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas or around then. It's a little bit different than we normally do. And I know you make stuff up, but I heard you introduce yourself recently to a group because I thought that'd be a good place to start.

Mike: How'd you get into this stuff?

Peggy: I happened to be graduating with my master's degree in speech language pathology, and I got a job in Green Bay as a speech language pathologist, in Green Bay Public Schools. And a friend of mine took me to see an improv show, and this was in 1991 when even before Whose Line Is It Anyway? and all the improv things. And I went and I had a little bit of a background in theater. But I was so struck by what they were doing up there, and not necessarily in the comedic way, but in the team building and just the creativity happening that the best I can describe it to this day, I've not had this feeling again. That night I felt like I was home.

Peggy: It was like I saw something and I always tell people that whole, I didn't even know what the word manifest meant at that time, but just that whole envisioning something I like, literally envisioned what this could be and that turned into educational improvisation. So it was just this right combination for me of community and being on stage. But not being alone on stage and really involving the community and the audience in the whole process of creating something. It obviously became a laser focused passion for me that never in a million years would, I just thought that, what, 35 years later, I'd be still as excited about it as I was in 1991.

Mike: If you're a teacher, you're already in front of people all the time, but how did you...

Mike: A lot of people go to stuff like that and enjoy it, obviously, but not a lot of people have the guts to say, I'm going up there.

Peggy: (Laughs) That's always been... Mike, I don't know, it's so funny talking about this whole Zoom, the whole, now that things are on screen, I hate looking at myself on the screen.

Mike: Yeah.

Peggy: But I cannot tell you how not self-conscious I am when I get up on stage. I get up on stage and I literally, my jitters go away. It's there when I first, but the moment I get up there, I don't know. I'm not a nervous, I'm not nervous in front of a group of students. I am, always a little bit 'cause you never know what, but not to the extent that people say that they're more afraid of it than dying. (laughs)

Mike: Yeah. I watch you do it. And I would think that overcoming the fear of being judged is one of the first things you need to overcome.

Peggy: I read that when you gave me like the outline of things. I read that a little bit and I've been thinking a lot about that. To me, you're right with the fear.

Peggy: Like it's, there's a fear and I don't wanna say it's fear of being judged. I don't know. That's not how it cultivates for me. I think that once you decide to do something for yourself.

Peggy: That once that you are like, I believe in this, this is good for me. This is good for, I'm one of those people.

Peggy: It's good for me. I want 150 people to have it, right. So I don't ever get up on stage and worry about being judged. You heard me talk about this to the kids when we were together a few weeks ago, the high schoolers. That I learned from a gentleman named Pat McCurdy, who, if you have a Wisconsin audience, there's going to be some people who know who he is.

Peggy: Years and years ago. I'm a little bit younger than Pat, but not by much. He's a performer, a Wisconsin.

Mike: Icon, he's an icon.

Peggy: He's an icon. Anyway, and we were sitting and having a beer after I had, I was judging myself after a show and I'm like, I saw the one guy that wasn't having fun.

Peggy: And Pat goes, 80% rule. I said, what? I want you to succeed 80% of the time with 80% of the people and 80% of your material in 80% of days. Like that whole kind of forgive yourself for 20% of anything is huge I think.

Mike: That's great.

Peggy: Huge! Huge.

Mike: Yeah. I like that.

Peggy: And especially now in the culture that we're in with teens now, if we're gonna get specific about teens, I am watching the fear of making a mistake.

Mike: Yes.

Peggy: Absolutely hobble teens.

Mike: Yeah.

Peggy: In a much bigger way than it did in the last 20 years, like I've just, I'm just watching it. We have with now people being able to put things on social media and the shadow judgment that comes with that and everything that goes with that. And I really worry about us not cultivating being uncomfortable.

Peggy: And learning as we go and putting something out there and then going, eh (raises hands up in the air), yeah. That, again, back to that 80%. Okay. That's one of my 20 percenters that we're gonna laugh about because it went so poorly. But there has not ever been something in my life that I have failed at so big that it ruined my life.

Mike: (laughs) We're still here.

Peggy: We're still here.

Mike: It's interesting you said kids, 'cause I wanted to go there and I do this when I am talking to individuals, kids and adults, and I've watched you do it. So you have the kids around in a circle and I already know I, I know where you're going, right?

Mike: So you're gonna get them up doing something silly like duck walking while squeaking or something. And I can tell the first ones that are gonna get up and I bet you can too. I just know who's gonna get up. It's the kids who walk into that, who have already let go of that, oh, I'm gonna look silly. But what I watch for, and I don't know if you do, is I watch for the, oh, I don't know how to put this. The "cool kids" (air quotes), the kids who live in that fear, I watch to see at what point do they join in. 'Cause they always do, but at what point do they go, oh, what the heck! And that's when you build culture, I think. When you can bring most of the people on board. I already know the first ones who are gonna get up, but you must do something to encourage that group who is normally stuck to their chair in fear of being kicked out of the group to actually get up.

Peggy: I give them choice and I give them permission. I give them the choice to not participate. Just simply saying, look, you're not gonna hurt my feelings if you choose not to.

Peggy: I really would like you to, but I'm gonna give you permission as long as you don't yuck somebody else's yum.

Mike: Yeah.

Peggy: As long as you don't, if you don't feel comfortable and you don't wanna do this, I'm not gonna make you do that. Having said that, I'm hoping that I show you by example, that I'm willing to put myself a little bit out here.

Peggy: Not in a comedy way, I'm just putting myself out there in a, if you wanna call it vulnerability, if you wanna call it trial and error. I'm willing to do the trial and I'm willing to live with the error. If you are willing to do that and whatever way that you wanna do it, I'm gonna support you. And when those moments happen, which I just did a workshop for a boy's school, like a true reform school. Like it's one step away from legit juvenile jail, right?

Mike: I worked them.

Peggy: Yep. Yep. And I went in and of course, those boys, trauma, trauma, they're operating from trauma, right?

Peggy: And, we managed in an hour to get all of those boys to enjoy some piece of it. Including the biggest, toughest. But here's the thing, the biggest, toughest kids are oftentimes your biggest hearted kids as well.

Mike: Yes. Yeah.

Peggy: And so if you can signal to them that I'm gonna make this a safe space for you to just shine a little bit, that's huge.

Mike: You do that again, you invite me. I wanna watch that. I worked in those places and that is an awesomely great task. And if you can build culture there, you can build anywhere. You just said something though that I think is really important in culture and you put it a different way. You said something, did I get it right?

Mike: You can't yuck. Somebody's yum.

Peggy: Yes. I learned that from, okay. That was, I have to give props to Vicki Landers, I dunno if she still is, was a health teacher in West De Pere Middle School when I think she might still be working there. And I don't know where she got it from, but when she taught the mental health part of, and the culture part of middle school that she's you're not allowed to yuck somebody's yum.

Peggy: I love that. And I'm sure she didn't come up with it, but just that idea of you don't have to like this, but you don't get to pollute. You don't get to pollute what's happening for other people.

Mike: I talk about that a lot because that parking lot talk, or behind the door talk that people do is what keeps people fixed in an unhealthy culture.

Mike: So if you don't criticize, it allows creativity to take place. Okay. So where does creativity come from?

Peggy: Again, I do believe, I truly believe that, I truly believe we all have the equal amount of creativity. Creativity gets its home base or gets its like identity in the arts because it's so blatantly obvious.

Peggy: But I do believe that everyone has innovation and creativity in them. I don't know if it's where it comes from. It's all in us. I think you have to both do your own work to get comfortable to show it to someone.

Peggy: And overcome your own, also your own restrictions. I'm not an artist, therefore I'm not creative.

Peggy: Bologna.

Mike: Yes.

Peggy: Sometimes I watch, I had some street construction going on here and a lot of people would not consider that a creative. But I watched them have a problem with whatever the heck they were doing. And I watched them think it through and I watched them try a few different things. And I watched them, whatever they were trying to extract or whatever, get unlodged.

Peggy: And of course then they all give each other high fives. And these are guys working in the rain, working in the heat or whatever. And yeah. So that, I think. Discovering your own creativity is letting go of this weird definition we have of it that it can only happen in this space or that space. It can't happen in an industrial space. It can't happen in a, what the, I don't, I can't give a specific example, but dang well that there are many people who get super creative with how they're going to, either be in their tractor on a field, they're gonna do something that makes their life more enjoyable, doing some hard labor stuff.

Peggy: That's creativity!

Mike: Yeah.

Peggy: So I think that's where it starts, is stop labeling yourself as i'm not a creative person.

Mike: That's awesome. How does that group healthy culture come about? What are the components to create a healthy group culture? You worked in education, you had to work some years were probably healthier than others in your building and then what also, on the flip side, what makes it toxic?

Mike: And by the way, since this is the day before Thanksgiving, these are transferable to families I would think.

Peggy: Carol Burnett is my all time idol.

Mike: You got to perform with her a little, right?

Peggy: Yes, I did. God, yes, I did.

Mike: Divert. Tell that first.

Peggy: Carol Burnett has been my 110% idol my entire life.

Peggy: And for my 50th birthday I threw a Hail Mary and that's the only time I've ever gotten online, like at midnight to get tickets or whatever. 'Cause she was touring during her " A Night With Carol Burnett" and she's coming to Milwaukee. And I got on at midnight and I have four best friends that we've been best friends for 40 years. And the five of us went and, but long story short, at the very end, she asked for one more person if they wanted to do a question. I shot my hand up, I got the mic, and I, when I was in fourth grade, I won a talent contest imitating her pigeon lady. "Here pidgey pidgey pidgey", which is the whole thing. And I told her that. And I thanked her. I thanked her for, I said, I don't have a question.

Peggy: I said, I just wanna thank you for, and of course I'm bawling. I wanna thank you for the beacon that you have been. And I said, and I just have a request. I said, can we do a pigeon lady sketch? And she kinda smirked and she sits back in her chair and she says, okay, go ahead, start. And I'm like, so she's telling me, start the skit with me.

Mike: Yeah. Wow. In front of an audience that came to see her.

Peggy: In front of her! I don't give a crap about the audience! (laughs)

Mike: Okay. Right, right. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.

Peggy: In front of her. And I said, okay, I've never done this while I'm hyperventilating, 'cause I was. And so I did the, "And here are the pigeons are...". I can't even get close to it now 'cause I, whatever.

Peggy: But I'm here. Here the pigeons are out... So I, the thing here, Mike to know is that a true improviser, a truly good performer will set the other performer up. And so she is the person I wanted to say here pidgey.... 'cause that's her class like here pidgey. And so I set her up. I talked like the pigeon lady. I'm like, it's a good day out.

Peggy: And the pigeons are coming, but I can't find them. And she knew I set her up and then she did the call similar to her Tarzan call. It's almost as famous. And then at the end of the show, the lights come up and the guy comes back and asks me to come backstage. And they kept saying to me, all of our tech people she doesn't do this. Congratulations, she never does this. She never does this. And I thought, oh, you're just being nice. So I got to meet her, got to talk to her husband. We had a nice conversation about creativity and about living your truth and about, she thanked me for my passion and (sticks tongue out and motions hands down her face) balling and got my picture taken with her.

Peggy: Then I came back home and I looked, and to this day, go ahead, search on the internet and see how many people you can see taking a picture with Carol Burnett and a fan. I'm like one of maybe five.

Mike: Wow. That is awesome.

Peggy: Yeah. (laughs)

Mike: That was a great diversion. Talk about toxic culture then.

Peggy: Okay.

Mike: Or healthy culture.

Peggy: I've had a very unique life in that I have been, as a speech therapist, you travel to many buildings. So even within my own culture, I've traveled to several buildings in a day. And then with this public speaking, as you've been in a million buildings with that.

Peggy: And I can tell you that heavy, how do I wanna say it? You can tell if there's a hierarchy. If the leadership at the top is, you will do it my way or the highway. You're in trouble from the get go.

Mike: I think so.

Peggy: Yes. And so it's gotta be, I always say leadership is not dictatorship.

Peggy: If truly, if you are making someone feel and look as good as you. Then that's the best thing you can do. And the same thing if we take it back to, and then also just don't poke the bear. We also can agree to disagree, like to look at the 80% of good in people. If you have 20% that you do not agree with someone, especially over the holidays or you're spending time and that kind of things, like just take a look at the 80% that is good. And I do think that there's also toxic positivity, which I don't care for either. I think that's another part of it. People can see through this when people aren't being genuine.

Mike: Absolutely.

Peggy: And that's almost worse than that sort of staying under somebody's thumb.

Mike: Yep.

Peggy: It's like I just get icked out.

Mike: It's ick.

Peggy: It's an ick.

Mike: And being in schools, I watch kids. I used to think, Peggy, that I would have about a two year window in working with youth because I thought you'd reach a certain point and you can't relate. Kids are the ultimate forgiving audience.

Mike: They don't care as long as your you. If they feel you're genuine and you like them, it doesn't matter what you look like, where you come from, how old you are, they'll accept you. But they can spot a phony a million miles away.

Peggy: Mm-hmm.

Peggy: And I think it's also a really good reminder that they are so locked into developing a community in that age.

Peggy: Adolescence is all about that herd mentality.

Peggy: That they are gonna also protect their own. Even they will protect the ones that they wouldn't normally protect.

Mike: That's true.

Peggy: So if you can tap into that, think about it. When I think back to my teenage years, it was all about how are you going to be in this group?

Peggy: And if you can tap into that feeling with a group of kids and say you are your own agents. You, all of you in this room have potential to build an incredible culture in your school, in your wherever, by simply being genuine and vulnerable a little bit, and then celebrating each other's small successes.

Peggy: That too, we wait for these huge successes instead of oh I'm sure this happens to you too, in those moments when a kid does do something, you just wanna jump up and down then and there be like, yep.

Mike: W hen you were doing your little chicken thing or whatever with the circle, there were two girls and they were the ones who I thought were gonna be glued to their seat.

Mike: They were very much joined at the social hip, and when they got up and started squawking and doing stuff, I walked in the circle and just high fived them. And I don't think people saw, and they're like, yeah, this is fun. And I'm like, you made a decision to join the larger group.

Mike: The momentum was to join. There's a moment right where the momentum goes from i'm gonna look silly to everybody's looking silly and you can feel the ball just rolling down the hill.

Peggy: I think it's important to discern though that I try and bring it up very clearly to groups that I present with because they're putting in their trust in me that I'm not there to make them comedians or even to make comedy.

Mike: No.

Peggy: Not at all. And I think that's very important. That's a hurdle that I have to overcome with when people want to hire me or when I go into a group, is I have to make it very clear that is not my end game at all. Are we going to be entertained? Are we going to be shocked? Like in the good way, like.

Peggy: That was I was silly or I was fun. No, I use my training as a comedian to train other people, to push their own boundaries, to get a little uncomfortable. And if that ends up feeling or being silly, so be it. But it also can be very quiet and powerful and serious.

Peggy: Improv isn't just comedy, I've used improv for dramatic purposes as well too, to just, I said get people being comfortable being uncomfortable. And you are the support system behind that. I'm gonna give you a way to be uncomfortable so that when you come back to your comfort zone, it's a little wider.

Mike: And then what we do right, is the natural follow up to that is let's talk about how you're feeling.

Mike: Let's talk about what you're doing and kids today are, like you mentioned, they're struggling with mental health big time. And it's not oh, poor thing. They are really, if you ask them, they'll tell you, this is a huge issue in every single school I go into. The data that, the day that we were there showed seventh, eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade.

Mike: In the surveys they took in the entire county, that the lowest amount was 41%. All the way up to half of them had experienced some mental health episode, whether it's depression or anxiety in the last year. And talking in about it in connections and dealing with it with humor or creativity is part of the cure.

Peggy: Right. Yes. And also acknowledging that it is, I think that my [unintelligable] this subgroup of people that will be like, oh, the kids just need a bigger backbone or toughen up. They did not grow up. Those people saying that did not grow up with social media and all that goes along with that.

Peggy: And just the constant feedback. Even now, like the difference in their parents can check their grades in the middle of the day. There's no space that they're navigating personally, whatever. That can't be big brothered a little bit.

Peggy: And I can't even imagine 'cause I have my days where I just want to stay away completely from the rest of humanity too. And they're just that's a lot trickier to do now. And I do think that's very real. And I do think it is also paired with us as a society, creating a culture where you can't do something wrong or you're gonna be mocked or ridiculed.

Peggy: And so then that shuts people down from even trying, opening up to something new. And I think, and you probably too, but I think about how incredibly rich my life is because I am willing to take that step forward and have it go wonderfully and possibly horribly.

Mike: What a great segue, because that's also some of what you wrote about.

Mike: You also wrote a book a few years ago, right?

Peggy: I did, (laughs) I did. Just because you brought it up. So there it is. (holds up book)

Mike: Please do. We'll put a link so you can get it. It's a great little book. It's great.

Peggy: Okay. Here is a prime example. Here is a prime example of what we started with today when you talked about where does creativity come, and I said you have to start with what you care about.

Peggy: When I say to you that once I publish this, it does not live rent free in my head, meaning like I wrote it only because it, I always do this when I talk about it. (pats the back of her head) This book has been knocking at the back of my head for a good 25 years. Like I came up with the idea like 25 years ago.

Peggy: And so the premise is that, the concept of what if some like sixth graders ish, 10, 11, 12 year olds got to live at school? And what would you do if you got to go in school? The rules are can't make somebody else's job miserable. You can't destroy anything. You can't vandalize anything.

Peggy: But you can do all this stuff that as a kid you wish you could do. Go in the teacher's lounge, run in the halls, that's ultimately... it's there during the day. Don't run in the halls for safety. But when there's nobody in the school who cares if you book ass, if you book down the hall, who cares? And so what happened is I came up with that idea based on two things. I came up with the idea because I think it was years ago, Denmark Schools built their public library in their high school. And I thought that was just a really great use of multi-use space. And then I also, as part of my job, I go around to private schools to give speech therapy.

Peggy: And I am not a giantly religious person, but I think it's called like the rectory where the religious workers would live like, I think that's what that's called. And that idea of, okay, they live at church, right? Those humans are living at church, what would that be like?

Peggy: And I wrote the book with that in mind and so many things. It took me 10 to 15 years to write it because I kept getting stuck in my own stuff. I kept questioning my own stuff, all of it, how do I write this? And then I got stuck with whose voice is it coming from.

Peggy: And once I finally got over myself and also got so sick of it being in my head and just put it out there. I love having it. I've reread it a few times, but I think my message here is if you're gonna do this, if you're gonna do something like this, you wanna call this creative and you're gonna put it out there for other people's admiration, or other people's, then it's the wrong reason.

Peggy: I did this for me, 110% just for me. I will be the first to also admit, I cannot figure out how to actually get paid from Amazon.

Mike: (laughs)

Peggy: I am not, I'm not kidding. Not kidding. Have no idea. I think I've maybe made like, 'cause they take 90% of everything or whatever. So I think I've made maybe $10 on this book.

Peggy: I don't care. I don't care.

Mike: Let's see if we can get you a couple more bucks. The book is called...

Peggy: Sydney Owns A School.

Mike: Pardon me.

Peggy: Sydney.

Mike: Okay.

Peggy: My daughter, Sydney.

Mike: Oh, okay. And your daughter's name is also...

Peggy: Sydney, yes. Those are her real feet, that's her real feet.

Mike: I've met Sydney. Did she know while you were writing it, you were writing it and did she know the title, did she know that she's in it?

Peggy: That's her handwriting. I actually had her write it out, like the actual title of the book is in her handwriting.

Mike: So families have to get over themselves as well, right.

Peggy: This book is ultimately about family dynamics.

Mike: Yes.

Peggy: It's ultimately about Sydney and her twin brother, which are again, false. She does not have a twin brother.

Mike: That you know of.

Peggy: That I know of, no.

Mike: (laughs)

Peggy: I don't think so. And it wouldn't surprise me, honestly. (laughs)

Mike: Oh, I don't know. You weren't that out of it.

Peggy: So anyway, it's ultimately about a family and working through how to manage family members who can drive you up a wall, but you also still love, and then also managing a bully in school. And his backstory, the bully's backstory is in here too.

Mike: Yeah, I thought that was such a great topic for Thanksgiving as well. I'll ask you one more question and we'll let you go with this, I've watched you take a group of people who don't know each other and in the time it takes to do a short workshop session, they become a team.

Mike: It's no secret that we're split as a culture right now. Not that you're the be all, the end all. You're not gonna go on Nightline tonight or anything. But what do we need to do to come together as a culture in your opinion?

Peggy: Recognize that we are different. I think same to like recognizing that somebody might be having a tough day when they walk into your workshop, recognizing that we are divided, like just.

Peggy: Recognizing that, like saying, yep. I have a couple of friends who have dumped friends because of their political views, and I refuse to do that.

Mike: Yeah.

Peggy: I just, again, back to that 80%. Have I had some pretty heavy conversations and some pretty heated conversations with people. Yes.

Peggy: But I do think that recognizing, I took a cultural competence workshop years ago, I think in mid nineties. And the guys that taught that kept talking about the way that power gets so consolidated is by splitting the majority of people.

Mike: Yeah, right.

Peggy: And that has stuck with me. So find anything that you can be mutually excited about, respectful of, anything.

Peggy: I just think that we do have to start, And this is me too. I am somebody who, I have this luxury 'cause of being retired. I read all leaning. I purposely go out and I read things on the political spectrum that I completely disagree with, just so I can hear. Same way I have no, I said this when we were together with the kids.

Peggy: I have no reference point of growing up with this sort of social media stuff and I have no reference of what that's like to be a teenager dealing with any of that. How else am I gonna learn? You have to go sit and talk with them. You have to like, you have to, you don't have to walk a mile in their shoes, but you gotta be willing to try 'em on, and I think that's it.

Peggy: I'll be the first one to tell you that I am been, I, my ex-husband and I have been divorced for almost 15, 16 years now, and we happily hold Thanksgiving together.

Peggy: Because that's, it's we have a shared joy, our daughter, like full stop. And by doing that, by simply putting that mindset in that I am going to find the things that connected us in the first place and celebrate those things. 'Cause those things still exist. He's an extremely funny individual. He's extremely bright. He treats our daughter like very well.

Peggy: I cannot complain about any of those things. To walk in to a holiday, just giving yourself that self-talk a little bit of, yeah okay there's things we'll never agree on. Who cares? For 80% of the time we celebrate, can we celebrate what we did do right? And what we are doing right?

Peggy: And how we can go forward and do, right? Yes.

Mike: Awesome. Celebrate what you got going for you and don't yuck the yum.

Peggy: Yes. Yeah.

Peggy: I can't let you go without saying thank you for inviting me, but I cannot tell you how much I enjoy watching you present and how much I enjoy...

Mike: Thanks.

Peggy: I enjoy everything that you do so much, and I cannot tell you how much our ongoing, what me, you, Chris, and I have what? We've gotta have 20 years in, 20 years of shared.

Mike: At least.

Peggy: Yeah. And all of our connections and our emails in between and our inside jokes and all of that stuff, I love it.

Peggy: So thank you very much.

Mike: You're welcome. It's one of those things that happens when you're building a healthy culture. And it's great.

Mike: We'll see if we can sell you a couple of books, 'cause we're gonna put links to that on the podcast. It's really great. And I love it. It's a Thanksgiving book for crying out loud.

Peggy: It really is. Yeah. And if you can read it one day, It's not heavy. It's not heavy at all, so. (laughs)

Mike: For those of you listening and watching, we hope you find gratitude, humor, support, wherever you are. As always, thanks for joining us. Be safe, and if you're listening to this on this day that we publish it, Happy Thanksgiving.