Who I’m Becoming

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting, the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition, and by a grant from the state of Wisconsin's Dose Reality Real Talks reminding you that opioids are powerful drugs and that one pill can kill. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: My guest today, Jonathan Schwartz is at the top of his game, serving as a business manager to celebrities like Beyonce, Alanis Morissette, Gwyneth Paltrow, Mariah Carey, Linkin Park, and others.

Mike: But he kept a dark secret. Jonathan was a compulsive gambler, cocaine addict, and over the course of six years, he embezzled over $7 million from his clients to fund these addictions. His criminal behavior earned him a six year sentence in prison. But in 2020 he returned, got out, went back to school, got a degree in alcohol and drug counseling, followed by an advanced degree as a therapist.

Mike: Today, Jonathan makes a living as the director of Programming at Altus Rehab, a top tier luxury treatment facility in Encino, California. We're gonna talk about his story today. Welcome, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mike. I appreciate you having me on your podcast.

Mike: Well, I'm so glad that you could be here and especially from California.

Mike: I'm in Wisconsin, we're not doing well this winter, so don't talk about the weather, we'll be all right. Jonathan, you were in a social and financial circle that most of us never would know what it's like. I can't even fathom what that lifestyle was like. But I'm curious, how did the drug usage and gambling start?

Jonathan: In college, obviously I dabbled like every, I'm not gonna say every, like most students, I smoked cannabis. When I was growing up that was called "pot" or "weed". And it didn't have the same potency as it does today that these dispensaries are selling, which it's a whole nother subject.

Jonathan: I think it's awful because there's clinical evidence that supports today that cannabis can induce psychosis. And it's sad, but so I dabbled a little bit in a lot, actually, not a little bit in, in grass in college. But really the true addiction came in about 2009, 2010, just when I started to gamble.

Jonathan: And I met this assistant coach of mine and he said, "Do you wanna place a bet?" And I'm like, sure. I love sports. And gambling is a disease where the mindset is one of grandiosity and one living outside of reality that, I just thought. Okay, I could just win this one week and pay back Alanis, so it could only last one week, not five and a half plus years of everyday gambling like a degenerate that I was.

Jonathan: And ultimately during that six year span, I didn't like myself. I couldn't believe that I was violating my fiduciary responsibility to these wonderful clients that I had. And ultimately, I knew inevitably that I would get caught and eventually rupture the dynamics within my own family and even a ripple effect to not just a direct handful of victims that I embezzled from, but all the other wonderful clients that I had that I embarrassed so.

Jonathan: That happened in, like I said, 2010, the start of that type of gambling. Every day, I didn't miss a single day in six years. There was no way I could win. Most gamblers don't win, but there's no such thing as a smart gambler. But if I was just betting, let's say on a Sunday NFL game one, one game, who's gonna win, who's gonna lose and cover the spread. Perhaps, maybe I would've won once in a while. But me, I come up with this great strategy, which is, let me just bet on every game and not just the who's gonna cover the spread.

Mike: (Laughs) Sure.

Jonathan: But the totals, the parlays, the teasers, and it's impossible. But that's the mindset that I lived in.

Jonathan: It was a very irrational mindset, one that was clouded with unresolved trauma from the past, and I don't use any of that as an excuse. I take full responsibility for these poor choices that I made and the people that I hurt. So I got started with that and then it transitioned to a lot of suicidal ideation toward the tail end.

Jonathan: And that's when I took on another addiction that was the cocaine. And not wise for me to do that either. I have a heart condition, I have coronary artery disease. A lot of people say subconsciously that perhaps I was trying to off myself. I don't believe that was my intent, but I certainly had those feelings of ideation.

Mike: And gambling is one of those things where I haven't been there, so you'd have to explain what it's like, but you lose many more times than you win. So it would seem to be a stream of depression and cocaine, of course, would immediately lift you out of that.

Jonathan: Yeah, so gambling, which is a behavioral addiction, unlike substance use addiction or other process addictions, and it's got the highest correlation to suicidal ideation.

Jonathan: And so that's a direct, number one addiction. Where the population is not just the addiction, but the suicidality is present. And that's because you're dealing with someone's relationship with money and who wants to go home and tell their wife or their husband or whomever that they can't afford to pay the mortgage this month because they gambled everything away or they can't afford to do that.

Jonathan: And yeah, I was situationally depressed. I did not sleep for six years. At some point I took, some sleeping aids. That really didn't sit well with me. But anytime I heard a siren, I lived in fear. And this sounds silly, but it's sad when I even hear myself talk of, that was my reality in that six year addiction act of addiction window. But had I had the courage and after the first week or first even month, perhaps things would've been different. But, I don't live in my past, but I don't forget my past.

Mike: How'd you get caught?

Jonathan: I was in Tampa Bay, Florida where Beyonce was rehearsing for her lemonade tour, and received a call from my former partners and they said Alanis said she doesn't know anything about this $4.6 million that you embezzled from her.

Jonathan: And I'm still in that mindset of deniability to my partners. And I said to them, I don't know either. I made up this story that she was investing in a cannabis business. That was me continuing to use many of my defects of character, manipulation, dishonesty, and full-blown deniability.

Jonathan: So I flew back, they asked me to fly back. So I had to tell Beyonce that I'm leaving for personal reasons. And came back and I played poker with them and their lawyers that met with me in our firm's conference room. And I said, guys, I don't know why you don't believe me. Just give me a lie detector test.

Jonathan: And I was hoping to bluff them and they would not accept that invitation. But a few weeks later, they accepted that invitation. And happened to be on May 8th, 2016 because my sobriety date is May 9th, 2016, where they told me I needed to go down to a lie detect, take a lie detector test by a former FBI Polygrapher, who's very well respected. And I Googled when I got off the phone, I'm doing blow at the hotel where I am with my now ex-wife while I received this call. So that mindset coupled with the one of grandiosity and that I'm invincible associated with gambling, I Googled how to beat a lie detector test and thought I could beat it.

Jonathan: That's how big my ego was, during this addiction. Even though deep down inside I was insecure, low self-esteem, I had to present myself to the outer world as the big book says. And put up this facade and live this double life. So I take a whole bunch of cocaine with me. I snort it the whole way down, an hour and a half to meet the polygrapher.

Jonathan: I place my last bet with the bookie and I walk into his office. I put my feet up on his desk, like I'm the big shot, and I think I'm establishing this rapport that goes on for a couple hours. Now, as I reflect, I realize I didn't pay close attention to what I Googled. Because it says that it's their responsibility to establish a rapport with me, not me, to establish a rapport with them.

Jonathan: Long story short, I think I passed the test and I called my attorney when I returned back to the hotel where my ex-wife and I were celebrating our anniversary. And I realized I have no more access to my office.

Jonathan: And so I called my assistant and she said, I have access. I said, okay. This is that moment where now I know i'm in trouble. And so I called my attorney. I said, "Did you hear from the polygrapher?" He said, "Jonathan, you failed that test worse than anybody that's ever failed a test in this former FBI Polygraphers career." I said, "Okay, I guess I better not be in deniability anymore", and asked my attorney a question, "What does this mean?"

Jonathan: He says, "What do you mean what it means? It means you need to come see me tomorrow. You're facing 23 years, according to the sentencing guidelines in federal prison. So we need to come up with some strategy." And that's how it started. That's how I got caught. I was glad to get caught. It was a huge relief, a burden off of my shoulders.

Jonathan: Again, I wish I would've gotten caught or voluntarily disclosed my criminal behavior, if you will, by embezzling money from clients. And I didn't, but I deserved to get what I got. I got a six year federal prison sentence. And frankly, I needed it. I didn't believe that at the courtroom sentencing, but I believed it now as I reflect.

Mike: What was incarceration like? Did you take, was there access to recovery groups, counseling while you were in there? Is that where you kicked it into gear?

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, there's no counseling in federal prison. If you really have like severe mental health, you'll be able to see some professional, but that probably lasts 10 minutes.

Jonathan: But yes, there was AA meetings in prison. I did attend some of them, not consistently or regularly, but I did attend. There's a lot of contraband that's brought into prison. A lot of people doing drugs, a lot of people using things like a phone they shouldn't use. But after about the first six months in prison, I adopted this mentality that I'm a nerd now and that I want to be risk adverse.

Jonathan: And that helped me get through prison because if I continue with my old patterns and behaviors while in prison, then I'm gonna get a lengthier sentence. 'Cause there's gonna be some disciplinary writeup and I'm gonna be violating X, Y, and Z. And. I've already hurt my family and so many others already before I entered prison.

Jonathan: That my goal, hopefully when I reentered society, was to show them, my loved ones, particularly my three sons and even my ex-wife, that I don't expect you to believe the words that come outta my mouth, but I've done a lot of work on myself and maybe through my actions I can earn back your trust. And so that was the recovery community within prison, we also had a rabbi, I'm Jewish, so we had a rabbi come. Some with on Holy Holidays with some other rabbis, and it was just really nice to be connected to my higher power in that way.

Mike: Bridges can't always be rebuilt. You had to have lost some relationships along the way.

Jonathan: Oh, absolutely. I learned, I lost a lot of relationships. It's funny. Certainly the ones that I still am trying to repair are with one or two of my three kids. And it's been over 10 years. In May, I'll be 10 years sober and abstinent. My ex-wife and I, we don't communicate anymore. I don't blame her.

Jonathan: I wasn't a great husband. And there's some other relationships that I need to still earn back. I get to, I should say, earn back that trust. I don't play the victim role. My three boys are my best friends and were my best friends. I embarrassed them. I hurt them. I hurt their mother.

Jonathan: And so earning back that trust doesn't come on my timeline. It comes on the timeline that my higher power says, my kid is ready to come and maybe support me or maybe gimme an opportunity to earn back his trust.

Mike: That's the hardest thing, isn't it, Jonathan? That's so mature.

Mike: There are so many people who get into recovery who want that trust back immediately, 'cause now they're doing the right thing. But it's not on your timeline, it's on theirs.

Jonathan: Absolutely. And that's what I tell the clients here. Most people that enter treatment, they either have some unresolved trauma or they have some interpersonal relationship conflict and they hurt their parents, their siblings, their whomever, spouse or partner. And I say, it doesn't happen on your time. You're here to put yourself first. Get healthy, 'cause it'll have a positive ripple effect on the loved ones. But don't expect to earn back that trust when you leave treatment.

Jonathan: Or any time within a specific timeline because it's not on your timeline. And that's hard for them to understand. But I think before they leave, I think they get it.

Mike: The field that you were in is not it's not unknown to have people using, gambling in recovery. Did anybody in the entertainment field help you or did, was it just like life one, life two, they abandoned you and you're on your own?

Jonathan: Yeah. So the latter, before they knew what had happened and they heard that I took a leave from my firm. Two, two or three of them did call until they realized what I did when it became public. And even the indirect victims, like I said, I hurt them too. Even though I didn't take money from them directly, I embarrassed them.

Jonathan: And I have a lot of amends to still make today. I wasn't allowed to talk to them while incarcerated or during probation. So some of 'em I've assessed with my sponsor myself, even though I sponsor half a dozen or more sponsees. I also have a sponsor and we determine that, making amends may not be applicable if it can inflict harm onto others.

Jonathan: And I think for some of them especially my direct victims. As much as I would love to, particularly Alanis, let's say. It probably wouldn't sit well with her and might trigger some of those feelings and experiences from the past. So we decided that as of today, it's not appropriate to try and make amends to Alanis. But I hope in another platform or other platforms that I'll be able to get a message to her.

Jonathan: And as you know, making amends isn't an apology.

Mike: Right.

Jonathan: It's just, it's acknowledging that this is how I harmed you and is there anything I left out? And if there is, please let me know and I'll recognize that as well.

Mike: I was amazed to read that they were made whole though at least that's not hanging over your head.

Jonathan: Yeah, God. I'm so grateful that we were able to pay the clients back in full because had that not happened, I don't know that I would be in recovery. I'd probably still be using out of guilt and shame and not even know what to do. And, so yes, I'm grateful they got paid back, but even though that's the truth it still doesn't impact the fact that what I did was wrong was, is not right, it's wrong.

Jonathan: It was wrong.

Mike: We had a chat with your colleague Dr. Giles on the podcast a while back, I think about a year ago, and he had also a long road back. What led you to the recovery field?

Jonathan: When I entered society back in April of 2020. I realized that I'm well educated, but I also realized that now I'm known as a felon.

Mike: Yeah.

Jonathan: So it was very challenging to get a job, and so I took a job at a couple places. It never worked out. Dunkin' Donuts, for example. I left prison with slight to mild ego, and I still needed more humility. I had 85, 90% of humility, but I needed that 10% gap to complete the hundred percent.

Jonathan: And so I took a job at Dunkin' Donuts. It really humbled me, but I got fired after two months 'cause I wasn't cleaning the countertops or mopping the floors. Even though I did some of that work in prison. And then I got another job and I was given a provisional license, but when they did my background, I couldn't work there anymore.

Jonathan: So my higher power gave me a message and he said, it's time for you schmuck to go and work in the addiction and recovery community. I want you to get your CDAC. I want you to get your marriage and family therapist license with an emphasis in addiction and trauma. And I realized that's my passion.

Jonathan: My passion was to help people. My brothers and sisters, within the recovery world, not make the same mistakes that I made and learn from someone like me who not who doesn't just have the academia now, but also the experience. And that experience combined with the academia has really helped me to earn a therapeutic rapport almost in session one with each client. Because my brain works the same as their brain regardless of substance or drug of choice. And the mindset is there. It's been formed. Our subconscious mind, as from birth to seven years old.

Jonathan: Many of us in addiction have lived within that fight, flight survival mode. I know I did for 46 years of my life.

Jonathan: I'm just trying to encourage and motivate them to one, be grateful that you voluntarily are here. That's a step I didn't take, and let's use that momentum to learn all the coping skills, not just relapse prevention skills, but life skills. How to become a better human being. That's what's so beautiful about the recovery community, like the 12 Steps and other fellowships.

Jonathan: It's like I'm doing a daily reflection every day. I'm not. I'm far from perfect, but I'm not in a program that's seeking perfection. I'm seeking that of progress, and I can measure that in real time on a daily basis. I could also recognize my defects of characters if they may surface from time to time.

Jonathan: And when they do, I can course correct that too, and that's what I want to help them with.

Mike: We've had therapists, many therapists on the podcast and many listen. And I'm always curious how and when you decide to use self-disclosure. And that evolves over time as you get longer into recovery. I find that people hold it back rather than in when they're new to recovery, they leap in with. "Me too." So how do you use self-disclosure? Because I would imagine your story is, if they don't know it, it's gotta knock 'em on their heels a little bit.

Jonathan: Yeah. I yeah, it's a great question. It's the first time someone's ever been wise enough to know that's something that's, really not acceptable.

Jonathan: However, as a therapist, it's okay to self-disclose if they believe it can help, it's in the best interest of the client. So when I self-disclose, I am, I literally self-disclose and they really respect that. Now, I don't name the clients because I don't, I'm not enamored by that. And they may be, and I don't want them to get enamored.

Jonathan: I want them to focus on themselves. But I tell 'em my story. Gambling, cocaine, infidelity, not a good person. And but I don't live in guilt and shame. I find myself resilient. I want to help you become resilient. So by self-disclosing, that is precisely why I can establish that therapeutic alliance in session one.

Jonathan: I don't believe it's happened in the few years I've been doing this now, where one was disappointed or judged me because, I don't judge anybody today. Who am I to judge someone? And I try to encourage them to not judge either. And I think they respect my transparency. I think they know they see this authentic person today.

Jonathan: And that's someone that they're grateful that they can work with. And I really respect that. Like I walked in this morning to my office and this is what I received. From one of our clients that are here. Thank you for all that you do for us. I'm vegan, so they bought me a vegan cookie.

Mike: (Laughs)

Jonathan: But that's where I get my joy today.

Jonathan: It's not about money. Money never bought me happiness. I don't make a lot of money, but I am truly the happiest I've ever been. That is just a perfect, it's no coincidence that we're having this podcast, and I'm telling you how blessed I am to work in the recovery world. And it's not about money.

Jonathan: It's not about material things. It's about my soul, connecting with their soul and just being of service.

Mike: Part of self-disclosure is it's not about what happened, because anybody you're self disclosing to have already had crud happen to them. It's about, and here's how I got out of it.

Jonathan: Yes.

Mike: Here's how I'm taking care of myself now, and that's the part I think people don't focus on as much.

Jonathan: I agree. I totally agree. Yeah. No, it's a, it's not about yesterday. This is not a program of looking back. Yeah, you sometimes, relapse prevention tool might be to rewind the tape and remember that dark moment and that might reduce your intense cravings or whatever.

Jonathan: But it's all about today actually. It's not even about tomorrow. This is a one day at a time program. Let's be mindful, let's become emotionally present. And that's something that I lacked in my active addiction. And that's why, I thought, when in active addiction that I was a great father, a great husband, but I wasn't, because I wasn't emotionally present.

Jonathan: I was physically present, but I wasn't emotionally present. And today I really value being emotionally present, far over any physical presence.

Mike: What's your job like as Program Director at Altus?

Jonathan: Honestly, it's just about helping with compliance. It's about helping the staff divide creating a weekly clinical schedule, creating a staff schedule, being there to support the clients. Being there to support the staff, and then, just we're required to have certain policies and procedures in effect. Myself and another person are involved in helping to ensure that we're exceeding any expectations from the county and state. The sad part about the recovery community, there's a lot of unethical behavior.

Jonathan: I happen to work for a wonderful woman whose sole motivation is not her bottom line, but how we can help clients and do it ethically and within the guidelines they are afforded treatment centers. So I'm blessed to work in a place for a wonderful woman and I don't take that for granted that she hired me years ago as a felon and believed in me enough to promote me years later.

Jonathan: And I'm blessed to be here.

Mike: I've had a couple conversations about that, and I used to do that, right? I was working in facilities and the corruption boggled my mind. I can't fathom somebody getting into this field to be corrupt. It's not like it's rife with huge dollars.

Jonathan: No, the couple guys that I'm working with, they're producers and they produced the great movie, a great documentary called Shuffle.

Jonathan: It should be out in many theaters soon. And it talks just about that insurance fraud, body brokering, going to treatment centers and they say, come here, but you can't come here unless you drink alcohol because we need you to have a BAC of X, Y, Z.

Jonathan: So we could admit you to detox. That's disgusting and that is why I don't schmooze with most people in the recovery community. And I'm not saying there aren't wonderful places, there are, but I would just caution anybody looking to go to a treatment center. Just do your homework, do your due diligence, ask a million questions.

Jonathan: Don't just look at the website, 'cause how I wouldn't trust the website.

Mike: Oh, the websites are all gorgeous. What are your priorities now? Walk us through a day for those of you, you couldn't possibly know this, those of you listening, watching we've started this at, I think what, 6:30, 6:45 your time, in the morning.

Jonathan: So I like to come or I'm a morning person. I'm too old to be a night owl. Those days in my life are over. Like I said, I'm a nerd. I enjoy coming home from work emotionally drained from being of service. Today, I can sit on the couch and watch something on Netflix or read a book and not feel guilty that I'm not being productive.

Jonathan: 'Cause that's part of my self-care. I do need to improve my self-care. I need to start exercising again. But I get up at 4, 4:30. My first instinct is you could work out now, but then I default to, you know what, let me get a head start at work. And so I get in the car around 5, 5:30, I'm here at work and I could, I look at what I need to do for the day.

Jonathan: What do I need to document? Who am I seeing for sessions? What group am I leading at what time? And I probably, like I said earlier, off the recording, I'm putting in a lot of hours, but it's not a job.

Jonathan: This is what I love to do. That's why when I get up, the first thing I wanna do is come here because it's not just me.

Jonathan: I'm not the only person that's helping clients here. We have a great team and we're all helping them try and accomplish their goals. But, it's sometimes I find myself working harder than them, and that's a challenge.

Mike: Yeah. It's, it is such a rewarding field because you can see literal, you can see the changes physically, let alone mentally, and emotionally in the clients.

Mike: And that's so rewarding, isn't it?

Jonathan: It's a blessing, yes. It really is rewarding and that's why I'm here.

Mike: Are you like me though? I, long ago I stopped trying to predict or guess who was gonna make it 'cause I was wrong most of the time. Recovery's hard. People with great resources and accessibility to support sometimes don't make it.

Mike: And those who you think wouldn't have a chance, all of a sudden you bump into 'em and they got four or five years in.

Jonathan: It's so funny, like the questions that you're asking are so real to me in this moment because. I just learned on Saturday that a client, whom I never would, and I don't like to use absolutes, that would, in my opinion, was unlikely to relapse, just relapsed.

Jonathan: And I've reminded, like that's just a reminder that I see often that I am so bad at predicting who's going to maintain a sustainable recovery and who's gonna relapse. So I stopped doing that. Because I'm wrong 95% of the time. And yeah, it's really hard. There are the traditional gold standards and if they follow them, then maybe that increases the likelihood of a sustainable recovery.

Jonathan: Okay, so after a 30, 45 day program like ours, why not go to a PHP/IOP and live at a sober living? Why not reinforce? So the skills, the foundation that we gave you, build on that. And many of them do, but there are some that don't. And those that don't, I feel are setting themselves up for a failure.

Jonathan: Now, it doesn't mean that they can't succeed absent the PHP/IOP sober living. Okay? Are you gonna go to 90 meetings in 90 days then? Are you gonna find a sponsor and work the steps, or are you gonna be part of another fellowship? Theres SMART Recovery, Dharma Recovery, your church, your synagogue, just the importance of connection through community.

Jonathan: And if they can do that and really work hard and set up boundaries, all the things that they learn, stay away from toxic people. And really learn, utilize that assertive communication with your loved ones so you don't escalate any disagreements. If they can do that outside of the gold standard pathway, then great.

Jonathan: Maybe they can do this and be abstinant.

Mike: Walk the walk, talk the talk is real. How long before you felt, okay, this is now who I am, rather than I feel like I'm conning myself and everybody else.

Jonathan: As I mentioned, 10 years in May. But I'm just as susceptible to anybody. Tomorrow morning when I wake up to a relapse. So I don't, I fear complacency.

Jonathan: Do I really fear it? No. But if I convince myself that I fear complacency, hopefully I'll stay on my recovery plan. We each have our own personal recovery plan, and if one line item out of my six bullet must be part of my program is absent, then that means I'm becoming complacent and I need to look at that and make the changes. But in the first year of pre-prison, I went and I started the steps and I finished them before I entered prison. And step one: Accepting that, my life's unmanageable and I'm powerless over it.

Jonathan: I didn't understand that.

Jonathan: And I called my sponsor and I said, what do you mean? I don't understand your instructions for step one. Me, Jonathan, powerless and unmanageable. He said, schmuck, you're facing 23 years in federal prison. You don't think your life's unmanageable and you're powerless over it?

Jonathan: I said, you're absolutely right. I thought this was a cult, but I'm gonna give it a try. And I now know it's not a cult. And I don't preach the 12 steps to anybody. They just work for me and they've worked for countless others. I go to my Gamblers Anonymous meeting every week and I take commitments and I love going.

Jonathan: It's my favorite night of the week. 'Cause I'm surrounded by people who I understand and who understand me and support me unconditionally, and I support them unconditionally.

Mike: I know. It's like this, right? I know it's intertwined, but which addiction was more difficult to let go of? The gambling or the drugs?

Jonathan: The gambling for sure.

Mike: Why?

Jonathan: Because the mindset also of a gambler is one of chasing.

Jonathan: Believing that I can just bet and win the $7 million I embezzled in one day. Let's say I could do that, which I couldn't obviously, and no one likely can, but let's say that happened. How am I going to give 7 million cash back to the handful of clients I gave? What do you think the bank's gonna say? Wow, we can't accept this $4.6 million cash in Alanis's deposit. Come on. So even if I had won it back, it would've been really difficult to pay them with cash from a bookie. So chasing, I really didn't like gambling. I was literally chasing, so that the fantasy of winning it back and paying them back before getting caught.

Jonathan: Which obviously wasn't the case, but that's why gambling was the most difficult because even though I didn't enjoy it, I was chasing so that I could save face and not rupture my loved one's lives and hurt other people. But, that again, was not the right mindset and I wish I had adopted a more mature and more rational one.

Mike: I want to ask you about the life changes you had to make. We're taping this, so this'll play after the Super Bowl, but this is the week before the Super Bowl. I was listening to a radio broadcast. There's over 3,000 different little prop bets you can make, 3,000. It's to encourage, so do you have to like, stay away from even watching it?

Mike: Or we talked off air about the Grammys. Do you have to stay away from certain things? What lifestyle changes have you made to solidify your recovery?

Jonathan: So I won't go to Vegas anymore.

Jonathan: I'm not, even though I have long-term sobriety, I'm not putting, again, I'm a risk adverse. I'm a nerd.

Jonathan: I'm not putting myself in a place that I don't need to be tested. I don't need to be tested on what kind of cravings I might have. But today I can watch a football game. Today I can watch sports. I rarely watch a complete game, regardless of the sport. It's just because I prefer to do something else over watching. But I hope to get to watch some of the Super Bowl. I could care less who wins. I don't look at the spread. It doesn't trigger me anymore. But if I went to a casino, I probably would be triggered and that's why I avoid it. I avoid people, places, and things that are toxic for me, like most people learn to do in recovery.

Jonathan: And for today, I haven't had any cravings. I have challenges every day. I have severe financial challenges, bills that piled up when I was away, but I've learned to surrender and accept that I don't have the financial means to pay it, and it is what it is. And if I have bad FICO score and then I have a bad FICO score, but I have my life back today and I get to do something that I enjoy every day.

Jonathan: And so I don't get stressed too much. Listen, there are people who have a stronger recovery than me. I'm not here saying I have the best recovery plan. I have my recovery plan that works for me. And I'm proud to surround myself with healthy people. I don't have unhealthy people in my life today by design.

Mike: That's, I think one of the keys is your relationships, right? You have to terminate some, start new ones, and it's hard to start new ones.

Jonathan: Yeah. I tell this funny story that to the clients too, and I'll share a quick version of it. When I was caught and it was aired on TMZ and other platforms, my eastern western medicine doctor called me and he said, I want you to come to this house tomorrow, this is pre-sentencing, I want you to come to the house tomorrow. This house, I want you to wear a suit. You don't ask me why. Just be there. I'm like, okay. Trusting my doctor. I go there, I walk in the house. I don't know anybody in this house. In the backyard, there's a rabbi giving a eulogy of a funeral.

Jonathan: So I sit in the back row, the doctor's not there yet. The doctor comes shortly after I sit down. I said, doc, what? What is this? He said, Jonathan, the person whose house you're at, fears death, and he wanted to stage his funeral, but the people don't know that, so that he could hear what they're gonna say about him at his funeral.

Jonathan: I said, wow. At that time, this was 2015, 16, they were doing some reality shows around this subject. So when I left with the doctor, he asked me, what's your takeaway from this? So I took a few moments. I processed that and I said, my takeaway was is this doc, and this is still my belief today, by the way, in the height of my former career I would've had six, 700 people at my funeral.

Jonathan: 98.5% of those people would've been there solely out of professional obligation, not because they cared about Jonathan Schwartz, me. Today, if I were to pass away, I probably have 50 people at my funeral, 70 people, but 99.9% of those people are there because they care or love me.

Jonathan: And that to me was a crossroad for me to recognize the importance of not being a people pleaser, not trying to be validated by others, external validation, not be being afraid to say no and 'cause I wanted people so much to like me. Today, I set really strong boundaries and I have a quality inner circle, and it's because I'm no longer insecure, no longer a people pleaser.

Jonathan: And I can have a quality group of people around me because I think in our society we use this word too loosely, called friends.

Jonathan: And in California, probably not like Wisconsin. A lot of people go around here and say, I love you. I love you. Do you really love me? Come on, do you really love me?

Jonathan: But you might like me. I might like you, but love's a strong word. And friends is a word to loosely used. But most of my friends today are my sober peers. And then a handful of others that are normies that respect me and I respect them.

Mike: Yeah, you're right. In Wisconsin, we've had a stretch of below zero days.

Mike: So when we're talking to one another, I love you doesn't come up very much. I can't even tell you what does come up, but

Jonathan: (laughs) Yeah. Okay. Ears closed.

Mike: Yeah. So you talked earlier about you've never been happier. I'll let you go with this. That's where the happiness comes from.

Jonathan: It comes internally. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm proud of myself. Like I often say and encourage clients to say what I say, which is I can honestly say that I am proud of myself today and I'm proud of who I'm becoming. And that's an important component because I can recognize that today I'm proud of myself, but I also, by inserting the word I'm proud of, words, I'm proud of who I'm becoming, speaks to the progress that I must participating on a daily basis. And so I can say to you and to your listeners that I am proud of who I've become and who I'm becoming. And again, for those that want to judge me, I respect that. A lot of people sometimes think I'm not humble. When we talk about the names of some of these clients, and that's why I try not to talk about 'em because.

Jonathan: I am humble today, but I'm not out to prove that to anybody. I know I'm humble today, and I know what I did was 100% wrong, and I had great clients, none of which deserved this, and my family didn't deserve this, and I deserved the consequences, and I accept them.

Mike: I love that, you probably saw me flinch, I love the word becoming and a lot of people would've automatically went to become, but you're still evolving.

Jonathan: Oh, yes.

Mike: We all are.

Jonathan: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I can only speak for myself, but as this is a one day at a time, as I said earlier, and I'm not promised tomorrow. And so for today, I'm gonna give them the best version of myself and give myself that best version. And we'll see what happens.

Mike: That's great.

Mike: I know you gotta, it sounds strange to say, I know you gotta get to work, so I'll let you go.

Mike: For those of you who are listening, there are links to Altus Recovery in the podcast blurb. Jonathan, thanks for your dedication and your story, your work, your recovery.

Mike: For those of you listening and watching, we hope you find love, courage, support wherever you are.

Mike: Thanks for listening and watching. Be safe, be well.