Be Your Best Advocate
Author of "Selling It Right, getting Result With Integrity and Five Star Teamwork" and President of Get Smart Training
Most people spend most of their time at work, and what happens at work is often a leading cause of their stress and anxiety. Michelle Correia-Templin talks about the importance of asking for what you need and forming healthy relationships in the workplace. Michelle is the author of Selling It Right! Getting Result with Integrity and Five Star Teamwork. Michelle is also the President of Get Smart Training, a California-based learning organization with focus on Sales Messaging, Emotional Intelligence, and Change. She is an international speaker and trainer. When over a third of the workforce has reported their mental health has worsened in the past several years, it makes sense that employers and employees address the issue. Michelle Correia-Templin can be reached at [email protected]. Help for your mental health is available. Nationally, you can start your search at https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/find-help.
[Jaunty Guitar Music]
Mike: Welcome everybody. This is Avoiding The Addiction Affliction, a series brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.
Mike: So much of what affects our mental health has to do with our work. We've discussed the changing work culture here and how it affects workers, management alike. We're gonna continue that discussion today with our really special guest, Michelle Correia-Templin.
Mike: Michelle is the author of "Selling It Right, getting Result With Integrity and Five Star Teamwork". Michelle is also the President of Get Smart Training, a California based learning organization with a focus on sales messaging, emotional intelligence, and change. She's an international speaker and trainer, and we're privileged to have her as a guest today.
Mike: Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle: Yay! Thank you. Appreciate that.
Mike: Well, I'm so glad that you're with us and it's early. You're out in California, right? What time is it there?
Michelle: Yes. Yes. It's not that early. It's 10 to nine. [laugh]
Mike: Oh, well, ok.
Michelle: Not, not too bad.
Mike: It's early for something.
Michelle: I do work a lot on the East Coast and a lot of meetings I have are 5:30, 6 AM. It's not unusual.
Michelle: So I've already had a coffee.
Mike: I've done some of these recently where the person has been in Germany or Brazil or Sweden.
Mike: And I'm like what time is it? Anyway, it's hard for me to figure that out.
Mike: Well, Michelle, let's start with a question that could take us maybe dozens of conversations.
Mike: What's changed in the work culture and I suppose the converse is what has never changed.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Great. Cuz when you ask that question as like, huh, so what's changed? You're making the assumption that there's been some big changes and of course there had, but in some ways nothing has changed when in the sense that people are still people.
Michelle: In the workplace, you still have a diverse group of people coming together trying to make something happen. So that hasn't changed, right? The number one reason. This is according to the US Department of Labor. Number one reason people leave their work, their place of employment is because they don't feel valued and appreciated.
Michelle: That's the number one reason that hasn't changed, Mike, that that that keeps going. Right? That has not changed. Now, obviously what has changed is virtual.
Michelle: Yeah. And so that changes a lot of things. So how you make sure that people feel valued and appreciated. That has changed. How people make sure that they feel valued and appreciated.
Michelle: That has changed. So how we do these things has changed. But it's still, people behind the screen is still a person. Behind the voice is still a person. It's still people. I have to remember that people have the same, you know, they still have feelings, they still have the same kind of aspirations. I'll tell you. So one thing that's significantly changed, so obviously virtual's changed, so how you do it, that's changed how people are, are motivated has changed.
Michelle: So when I was young I remember when somebody got a new job, everybody said, "Oh, how much you making? How much you making?" And it, you know economic incentive is still in the top four or five of things that are motivating factors, but it's not number one, it's not number two, it's not even number three.
Michelle: What is? Flexibility.
Michelle: That's a big one. I'm gonna say the younger generation, but it's changed for a lot of people. People want more flexibility. People want work that makes them feel valued, that makes them feel good, that makes them feel fulfilled, right? So that's, that's different. That wasn't the case when I was young.
Michelle: It was just, "Hey, how much you gonna make?" People want opportunities for growth to try new things, to develop skills. So that's changed. And going back to the virtual, all of that is harder in a virtual workplace.
Mike: You know, some people seem to love doing the virtual.
Mike: And you and I were talking just before we started recording this, that you and I both I, I don't wanna speak for you necessarily.
Mike: I dislike it. I mean, I like it for this. I can talk to you, but training and being in front of people is so much better than virtual.
Michelle: Oh, yeah.
Mike: But there's a lot of arguments in the workplace now for people who wanna stay virtual or stay at home and work. And employers are saying, "Nah, we want you back."
Mike: So what is it that management doesn't understand about workers and what don't workers understand about management?
Michelle: So the first part of that question, what is it that management doesn't understand about workers is that their motivations are, they're, they're motivated by different things.
Michelle: So that's number one, right? So they're motivated, they want flexibility. They want work that's meaningful. They want learning opportunities, developmental opportunities, and those things are all really big and they want variety. And so they want a lot of different things. And so you can't just say, oh, I'll give you a bonus if you get that done.
Michelle: You have to provide other things. What is it that workers don't understand about management or the employer? Communication is a two-way street.
Michelle: So you have to say what motivates you. You have to communicate, and that is your responsibility as an employee is to communicate your needs to make sure that employer knows how to inspire or motivate you.
Michelle: If you want flex time, you have to negotiate that. You have to say, you know, I get it. You want me to come in three days a week now? Okay. Well if I get this done here, can I have an extra half day off? Or, this is really important to me, so when I make this happen, can I do this? So you have to, you have to say what, what motivates you and tell them so that they can respond to it.
Michelle: I think a lot of times employees sit back and wait to be told. Right.
Mike: Well, and it's not just employees. I'm grinning because that's the same thing that all healthy relationships depend upon.
Michelle: Yes. Yes.
Mike: Is good communication. I mean, you're married, right?
Mike: So, you know, you can't wait for your husband to guess what you need.
Mike: Or do you, do you wait for him to guess?
Michelle: No, no way. And actually I'm lucky. My husband's very talkative. He's a good communicator. I'm usually the one that holds back. So you are right. So everywhere you go, you talk to the doctor, you tell them what's wrong, and then they can better prescribe something for you.
Michelle: So yeah, so with with clients, you know, it's two way, you gotta have it going both ways. And I think for some reason employees sometimes hesitate to say, "Hey, here's what I need. Here's what's gonna set in there for success." They wait for the employer to guide that. You can't, you gotta clearly articulate what you need.
Mike: Or then people complain about not having their needs met and they've never articulated them.
Michelle: Correct. And and there is some sort of expectation that when someone's in a leadership role that they have this ability to read minds. They don't, they don't, they, they do want you to perform and they do want you to be successful.
Michelle: It doesn't help them for you not to be successful. So, but they just don't know what to do.
Mike: So I, I love that line. [laugh] It doesn't help for them, for you not to be successful.
Mike: Well, okay, let's dive into that because that's a big thing for me. College's management programs don't necessarily teach that communication or talking to your staff or your colleagues about their needs.
Mike: So how do you acquire that skill? And, and a lot of people who achieve, get to a, a specific spot in their company got there because of their technical expertise.
Mike: And not their people expertise.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. I don't, so. You know, that the old EI or IQ.
Mike: Yeah, right.
Michelle: I, I you know, EQ IQ, what's more important and you know the one thing IQ you can't really develop.
Michelle: You can't improve, but EQ you can. And so being open to better your own skills would be super important as a leader. So I'm trying to go back to your question. So your question was how do people develop the skills?
Mike: Yeah. If they don't have 'em?
Mike: Cause you and I, but you and I both know people who have them.
Mike: But it seems like they were born with them.
Michelle: But yeah. But you can develop those skills. I'll tell you one thing, virtual work is gonna make that harder. And I see that with my young kids. I have young adults and virtually you don't see the mentoring happen. You, it just can't. Right? It doesn't happen.
Michelle: So I think the requirement of bringing people in is understandable and is actually gonna be healthy. There's more skin in the game for both spending more time together. But I think leaders also need to develop their own skills. And one of the skills is how do I create good open communication? How because putting your people first is huge. It's your number one asset. Your people, your number one asset. You cannot do everything. Hiring the best people is the most important thing that you do. Hiring for culture, not for skill, but for culture is huge. So I worked with a company, they're not a tech company, but I did an event for them in DC and then I did an event for them in Florida.
Michelle: And boy, both events, just great people, dynamic, energetic, super passionate about the work really willing to learn. And it was, it was great and, and I thought, my goodness, these are just fantastic people. And at one point I must have said, oh, I'm from San Diego, because somebody cornered me and said, Hey, we have a position open in San Diego if you know of anybody.
Michelle: And I was thinking about it. And then they said, but, but if you don't know of a rockstar, you know nevermind. We only want rock stars. We'd rather have that position open than hire someone that's just mediocre. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. They get it. They understand how important it is to hire the best and then develop the skills or perhaps, you know, the, the technical skills or the sales skills or whatever it is they need. But hire people that, that fit in your culture. Hire for people that kind of fill the void of your weakness. Something you're, you're not good at. Hire, fill that void. So and again, open communication.
Michelle: Tell people, I'm not good at this, so if you're feeling that, approach me, I wanna get better.
Mike: Well, and if you're hiring for culture, then you have to know what your culture is.
Mike: So what does a healthy culture look like?
Michelle: A healthy culture looks like people that are willing to make mistakes. That see perhaps, you know, stubbing your toe as an opportunity that, oh, I just learned something instead of, oh, you know, I, I'm, I'm terrible.
Michelle: No, no, no, I just learned something. I'm gonna use that and keep moving forward. So a healthy culture is all about learning, opportunities for growth, making mistakes, and that being okay. That's good. Not expecting perfection. That's what a healthy culture looks like. Not expecting perfection, but expecting good energy.
Michelle: Good work ethics. Good. I don't wanna say good effort cause you have to be, you have to at some point be held to end result. But a healthy culture is really about learning and growing and changing and not thriving for perfection, but thriving for improvement. That's what I was looking for.
Mike: Well, let's take a hypothetical cuz I think this happens to a lot of people.
Mike: So I'm working in any company and my supervisor and my boss, somebody above me walks through and says something as simple as, how's it going?
Mike: While that may be just be a drop conversation starter for the person saying it.
Mike: There's a lot that goes into how I hear that. Okay. And I think a lot of people start from a position of. I don't know if I want to say how it's going. I don't know if I want to tell the truth about this. I'm afraid of what the implication. Do you follow?
Michelle: Oh yeah.
Michelle: So much of what you just said, let's just take, so we talked about communication and how important it is and having that open communication.
Michelle: So putting your employees first and not just hoping that I'm gonna walk by and say, how's it going? And they're gonna tell me the truth. But scheduling, really important one-on-ones. I used to. Do the, I I called them my team when I had a team years ago, Hated it, loved it, but I would call them walk and talks.
Michelle: So we're gonna go for a walk and we're gonna talk. Just, just you and I. And I enjoyed it because we got outside. They enjoyed it cause we got outside and we would walk and of course we talk about the family a little bit, but it allows for some time for, so what's going on with Karen sensing that the two of you are not working well.
Michelle: Am I sensing it wrong or is there something going on? But there's just something about, you know, that kind of natural conversation that happens, but it only happens if you take a little bit of time, intentional time. So Stephen Covey the author of The Seven Habits, I know, you know passed away several years ago, but.
Michelle: One of the seven habits was put first things first.
Michelle: And so what does that mean? That means if your employees are the most important thing you put that on your calendar first. So. I did a project with him once. We were doing a learning project once, and I remember we were in the break room and he asked me something about, so how's it going?
Michelle: You know, how, how's, how's your, your work going? And I said, well, it's good. And he said, what, what does that mean? What does that mean? I, you know, I sensed something. I said, well, it's just hard to be away from my kids. I'm traveling, I'm away from my kids. And he says, I get that. You know, that's that whole putting first things first.
Michelle: And he said "You know when I say putting first things first, I'm, I mean, putting first things first. So, so for you, probably first thing is your kids." And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "So here's what I do." He says, "Now I can afford to do this." He says, "But I have", you know, at that time, secretaries, but administrators that.
Michelle: "I will tell them, call around to all my grandkids schools, find out when their plays are, find out when their special events are. Those go on my calendar first. I'm putting those things first, cuz I wanna make sure that even if I get approached to do a keynote, I can turn it down, or I can do it, but know that I'm, I'm sacrificing, you know, an event at one of my grandkids schools" and he, he always said, putting first things first.
Michelle: And so I thought about that and I think this is what managers need to do. Put first things first. So on your calendar, if you schedule all your meetings and you don't drop in you and or you think, I'll just drop in and I'll do those casual stop bys, "Hey, how's it going?" That's gonna be enough. It's not. The most important thing is your employees.
Michelle: Put them on your calendar first. Put them on your calendar first. Make sure that you have scheduled intentional times, whether they're walk and talks or take 'em to lunch or one-on-one conversations. Those have to go on your calendar first. If they truly are the most important thing, which they should be.
Mike: Now those of you listening, remember that Michelle lives in San Diego, so walk and talk is applicable there.
Mike: Here in Wisconsin, not so much so.
Mike: But one of his other habits that I like a lot was seek first to understand, then to be understood.
Michelle: Love it.
Mike: Now that I always put that onus on the boss.
Mike: Like if you're gonna create a culture right, where you expect people to open up, then you need to, as you said, you need to understand their motivation and you can't be judgmental. You have to find out about them. So you have to talk to them, ask questions, and not always be the advocate for the workplace.
Michelle: So okay. You could put that onus on the boss. I think communication is a two-way street, and I think if you have that sense or that sensibility that it's, it's, it, yes, it's great if the leader does it, but there are a lot of leaders that don't. And so if you have a leader that doesn't, then you, if that's important to you, you need to take the bull by the horns and say, "All right here's what's important to me. Here's what motivates me. Here's what you need to know about me. Here's what inspires me. Here's here are my, you know, just here, here are my hot buttons." And, and so I think when you have both parties taking responsibility for clear communication, and both parties have the same desired outcome, which is a successful employee, that's better.
Michelle: So I think both.
Mike: I love that because I talk to so many people who are twiddling their thumbs waiting for a better boss.
Mike: And that is such a, you know, in other words, how long does it take you to realize who somebody really is? And if they aren't what you need, you have to advocate for yourself.
Mike: Brilliant. Yeah.
Michelle: Yeah. And understand there's a little bit of a learning curve. I mean, if you're a new employee, you trust, but you verify, right? I mean, of course you trust, but you're gonna check on them a lot more. You know, employee that's been with you for a longer period of time.
Michelle: You're gonna give them more free reign and you're gonna, you know, trust them more and you're gonna give them more. Cuz you, you, you had, you know, obviously they've been with you, you've had some positive experience. So depends on where they are in the learning curve. But certainly I think really important for both parties to be responsible for that communication.
Mike: I'll tell you a short, stupid story that has nothing to do with the workplace, but it's instrumental. When I was coaching my kids in youth basketball, my second son's team, we called a timeout and it's towards the end of the game, and we designed a play, had the little grease board, and here's where you are.
Mike: Here's what we want.
Michelle: Yeah. Love it.
Mike: Yeah, it was great. And so the instructions were clear, right? The ref blows the whistle. They go back out on the court. My co-coach looks at me and he goes, is even one of them in the spot where we told them to be. And I said no, including my kid.
Mike: They ran a totally different play. [laugh]
Mike: And I said, but if this works, we're taking credit for it.
Michelle: [laugh] That's good.
Mike: But you know, people, you know, and so we spent the next practice. The point of this, we spent the next practice saying, if you don't understand.
Mike: You have to ask us.
Mike: Because we may be talking over your head or about something else, or you may not be listening. It's okay to say, let me make sure I understand this.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, that is great. And that's one of those, you know, in any kind of communication class, you know, that test and summarize, test and summarize, "Hey, you know, if I hear you right what you're saying is blah, blah, blah. Did I get that right? Is that, is that really what you were trying to tell me?" So that, that, that old test and summarize skill is very effective.
Michelle: But it does work both ways. I just think there is a little bit of, and I get it more responsibility put on the leader to, to set the stage for this. Yes. But but once that door is open, that, I think the responsibility should be shared.
Michelle: To test and summarize. Yeah.
Mike: You know, and if you say to people here's what I understood you just said, even in a marriage.
Mike: Most people will come back and say, that's not what I said.
Michelle: Correct. Correct.
Mike: Communication is hard. We're not always saying what we intend on saying.
Michelle: Correct. And not just that, but think about the different forms of communication. So now there's so much written communication, over the phone communication.
Michelle: And so you take a, for example you take a line and I'm trying to think of something like, you know I wanna walk to this restaurant, and if that's written, I'm not really sure what that could mean, because if I say it verbally, you hear it. Where I put my emphasis changes the meaning of it. So I want to walk to this restaurant.
Michelle: That means that somebody else doesn't I want to walk to this restaurant. That means that somebody else wants to drive. I wanna walk to this restaurant. So now all of a sudden it's, I'm changing, you know, we're, we're arguing about which restaurant. So just by putting different emphasis in different places, I can change the meaning of that sentence, which you don't pick up in written correspondence.
Michelle: Now and then with that is body language. So if I say, if I'm trying to think of, so if you say or person says I love working for ABC company. Okay, great statement. Easy to understand, unless I change my body language. If I say it and I'm scratching my, like rubbing my forehead.
Michelle: Oh, I love working for ABC company. All of a sudden that has a totally different meaning because, you know, I don't, you know, this place gives me a headache, right? If I'm rubbing the back of my neck and I'm saying, I love working for ABC company, all of a sudden you're thinking, wow, this person is stressed out about ABC company.
Michelle: But if I lean forward and I smile and my head maybe goes to the side and I say, I love working for ABC company. Well, you really think I do. And so all of that, those social cues matter too. Which again, we go back to the the virtual world, you don't get as much, you just don't get as much of that, which can really poof, blow up good, healthy communication.
Mike: Well, and that's just the visual stuff. I'm thinking about my daughter, oh, I shouldn't have brought her into this.
Mike: But you can say, I love working for ABC and change the tone of your voice.
Mike: And there's people that I know, my daughter's not one of them.
Mike: But she has the ability to be one of those where things are said sarcastically a lot.
Michelle: Oh, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mike: When I, it's like, oh, do you mean that or are you being sarcastic? People go, why I meant it.
Michelle: Sarcasm does not translate in writing unless you put, so I'm being sarcastic in parentheses, but it doesn't translate.
Michelle: And so again, all of that makes it so much harder for people to function and feel good about where they're working. Because communication is just tough now. And there's a lot of lost communication.
Mike: Okay, so. I know people are listening to this and they're saying, "Ah, this slows things down."
Mike: Yeah, it does. Right?
Michelle: Yeah. There is pros and cons to virtual workplace. One. I don't have to drive into work or a person doesn't have to spend an hour in traffic, and so I have more time to be productive. Okay. I have, I can perhaps if I work at home and I'm alone, I could have more quiet time.
Michelle: So that creates some more time for thinking. But for some people, they're not alone and so they have no quiet time cuz they open their office door and their kids are out there and the TV's on and there's, you know, laundry to be done. And so there's none of that. "Oh, I used to have a half hour drive home to help me unwind and help me think things through."
Michelle: So I think you just, again, I'm going back to that word. You have to be intentional. So if you need quiet time, you need to put that on your calendar. I need some quiet time here. I'm marking this off as a quiet hour, I'm gonna turn off all electronics and I'm gonna think through, you know, these two or three things and I'm make, I'm having a running list going for my quiet time.
Michelle: Things that I really wanna think about. So just be more intentional with your time.
Mike: Well, and even if it's slows the process down in the workplace.
Mike: You're creating the culture, right?
Mike: Where eventually things run much more smoothly. You have happier people.
Mike: And you're more productive.
Michelle: Yes. And, and you have better retention, which is huge.
Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's huge.
Michelle: Now hiring new people is expensive.
Michelle: Hiring them, training them, making sure they're up to productive capacity, quick. It's, it's all very, very expensive. So you have to sometimes slow down, hire well, hire really, really good, wait and be patient, and then train well and train, right.
Michelle: And take that time more seriously and make it a more valuable time. Because once you put them out there, it's going you, if you've made a mistake, that could be detrimental, not just to your customers, if they're out working with your customers to your reputation but also to the other team members if you don't hire right. That could start instigating some good people going, "Ah, I don't like it here anymore, cuz we're not bringing in good people!"
Mike: Yeah. So how then do you see with all of that balled up?
Mike: How do you see the global workforce evolving into the future as people are more mobile, they're more in tune with what it is that they need.
Mike: And I don't think we're gonna get away from the all of the virtual. How do you see it evolving?
Michelle: Well one, I do hear more and more organizations are requiring people to come in because they know it's important and I think employees have to understand why. Nobody wants it but you know, they really, down inside I think they know that there's value there coming in. So I think we're seeing that.
Michelle: I know a lot of organizations I work with, you know, Fortune 500, Fortune 100 organizations mostly, and a lot of them are saying, "Yeah, we don't have to lease office space as much. So what we're doing is we're using that money and we're bringing people in more often together."
Michelle: So we're using training opportunities, whether it's technical training or sales training, or any kind of soft skills training. We're using those training opportunities. And instead of saying, "Oh, John, you go to the one in Texas, you go to the one in Florida. Sharon, you go to, no, let's bring our team together. We all do it together. And then we have lunch together, and then we go bowling together." And so you're bringing people together more often intentionally, just so they get to know each other. Because loyalty has declined both ways from the employer and the employee. Loyalty has declined. An employee can get a notice from LinkedIn so quick and it says, oh, the job that you're doing right now, you can have it for 20,000 more a year or 40,000 more a year, and you can take that job without changing your pajama pants.
Michelle: Right? You like that?
Michelle: You can have a new job. You don't have to think about, oh, I won't see the guy at the, the bagel place anymore. Or I won't have lunch with Tom anymore. You're not doing those things. So that loyalty is declined. But the loyalty of the employer, it's easier to let people go.
Michelle: And so you know, be really careful about who you hire. Really, really careful.
Mike: And again, the key to all of this is communication relationships.
Michelle: Yes. I think so. I can't, you know, I just keep thinking about like I was in a workshop. And I honestly, almost every workshop I'm in now people will, I hear them as they arrive.
Michelle: "Oh my gosh, it's so good to meet you in person. Oh my gosh, I love this!" And, and you hear that and there's hugs and there's, you know, and I know, wow. Those people have never met. They've been working together. There will be now a better connection for them. It just happens. So creating those intentional opportunities is huge.
Michelle: And that open communication that we talked about, that happens more effectively, more organically, more authentically when people are in the same room.
Mike: You know, I, as you were saying what you just said, it reminded me of something I did about a month ago. I worked for a nonprofit place and I did a training for about 140 people, and the boss had a rule.
Mike: That's all. It was just a rule. When they walked into the room, they put their devices away. Now, I didn't know about the rule.
Mike: What I've been used to in the last few years is walking into a room to do some work and it's quiet. It's like church.
Mike: Because everybody's looking at their phone.
Mike: This was totally different. Everybody was chatting, there was laughter, they were smiling, they were connecting, and it felt so much healthier and the feedback and I said, why aren't your devices out? "Oh, it's a rule." But they loved it.
Mike: It was the opportunity for them to build those relationships and all somebody had to say is, put your phones down.
Michelle: That's so great and I think a lot of times employees think, oh, "I should look like I'm working. I should look like I'm working. I should look like I'm working." I think there's a lot of that. They think they're being judged. "I should look like I'm working." And so I love that that leader stipulated. No, actually this is part of what I want you to do.
Michelle: I want you to put, you know, phones down. I want you to close your laptops. And I wanna focus, and it's funny because every workshop that I have or any kind of full day session, whether it's a two hour session, I always ask the leader, "Will you do me a favor before we start? Tell them..."
Michelle: "Hey, we want you to focus here, so please we are begging you close your laptops, put your phones down. Enjoy this learning experience, love it, embrace it, and just focus." I love it when it comes from them and not from me, because then it gives them permission.
Mike: It's great. Well, this won't be the last time we have these discussions or I hope have you on Michelle.
Mike: It's been great. I really appreciate it. What are you doing today in sunny San Diego?
Michelle: What am I doing today? You said?
Michelle: Oh, we're going golfing.
Mike: Oh no, I don't wanna hear any of this stuff!
Michelle: I know it's terrible! But it's the fourth and so this is kind of a holiday week for me. I'm not traveling this week.
Michelle: So I feel blessed to live in a city that has a lot of great golf courses and, you know, my husband and I, it's something that we both enjoy. So, yeah, so that's what we're doing.
Mike: Oh, it's great.
Michelle: How about you?
Mike: Well, I'm gonna go biking as we speak. The nice thing about virtual is, while I have a nice shirt on to do this, I have biking shorts underneath.
Mike: So there you go.
Michelle: Yeah. Yay. Good for you.
Mike: For those of you who are listening, you know how it goes. I'm gonna put links to Michelle's contact information on the podcast. Thanks for listening today, and we invite you to listen in next time. And until then, stay safe, take care of yourself, and tell us all what you really need.
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