Clean – There is Always Hope

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everybody, this is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm your host, Mike McGowan. You know, there's a lot of ways to tell a story about recovering, but few that I've come across are as creative and introspective as the one of my guest's today.

Michael Rebellino is a civil engineer. And he's a writer. Michael's stream of consciousness novel Clean is the fictional story inspired by true events of Cameron, an independent, accomplished, and strong-willed young adult caught in the grips of alcoholism and drug addiction. We're gonna talk about the novel as well as addiction today.

Welcome, Michael.

Michael: Thanks, Mike. Appreciate you having me on. It's good to be here.

Mike: I'm really happy you're here. You know, Michael, we just had on, this is the way coincidences, go, right? We just had on William Stoehr, who spent a long time as an engineer. He told the story on our podcast, before he turned back to his true passion, art. And you're a civil engineer, and I might add a wonderful writer. I guess art doesn't have a timeline, it's not linear, right?

Michael: Yeah, it seems to be working out that way. I've enjoyed writing since I was pretty young, and then it started to feel like a bit of a passion of mine. Today it feels more like a calling. Whereas, on the other hand, I feel like I sort of stumbled into civil engineering. Maybe I was led there for reasons that I'm not yet fully aware of or may never know.

And, you know, I'm grateful for all the opportunities I've had and it's been a great industry for me to work in, but it's always sort of felt like more of a job to me than a career. More like a temporary thing than something permanent.

On the other hand, I would like to make a career out of writing, and speaking, and, you know, whatever else might arise. So I don't wanna really wait around until that just magically happens, you know? I don't want my dreams to stay dreams. I also don't wanna quit my job and be a starving artist at the moment either.

Mike: No kidding. No, not a good time to do that, right?

Michael: Honestly. But yeah, the last couple years, you know, I've been able to do both. Keep my engineering day job and write books and, you know, I'm not sure what the future holds, but the current situation seems to be working out pretty well, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing for now.

Mike: I'm not gonna give away, for those people who wanna read it, and I encourage you to do so, I'm not gonna do too many spoilers here, but the novel has the feel of a diary. So, if you don't mind if I can ask you some questions. How did you write Clean? Were you writing all along the way? Did you write it like a diary? Or how did you do it? Because that's the way it feels, like a day-by-day diary.

Michael: Well, I've kept a journal in some capacity ever since I was probably 10 years old or so. So I was journaling all along the way. I also had started several drafts of what I hoped would become my first book over the years, but always ended up stopping for some reason or another.

And then in early 2020 I was working on the latest draft and ended up scrapping almost the whole thing, for reasons I won't get into right now, but I was left with this one poem that I really liked and I wanted to share it in some way or do something with it. And I ended up stumbling upon this open mic night for writers at a local bar, and I was planning on doing like a spoken word poetry performance of some sort.

I had the date picked out and everything ready to go, I'd been practicing. This was in March of 2020, so like Covid hits a week or two before.

Mike: Oh, sure.

Michael: I'm slated to go down and do this. So, you know, I'm just sort of stuck with this poem, that I can't stop thinking about, not sure what to do with, and then a few months later, I started feeling a really strong pull to start writing again. And I ended up using that poem as sort of the starting point for what became Clean. And I chopped it up quite a bit and it ended up becoming sort of the framework for the ending. And you know, I also incorporated some of the stuff that I'd written in previous drafts of what I hoped would become a book.

And then, yeah, went back to some of my journals from over the years and incorporated some of that as well. But a lot of it I wrote from scratch too, or, you know, making modifications to those sort of base materials that I had to work with just by trying to put myself back in that place as best I could.

Mike: Well, you know, and you talk about being back in that place, so, while the novel is fictional, it's based on real events, you say, and it certainly reads that way. What can you tell us about the people and events that inspired the novel?

Michael: Well, like I mentioned, you know, writing a book has been sort of a dream of mine for a while. And I think the biggest event that really fanned that spark into a flame and ultimately resulted in Clean taking shape was my best friend passing away from an overdose in 2018. He had always encouraged me to not be afraid of people and not be afraid to like, put my stuff out there, which I very much was afraid of at the time. Writing was a very personal thing for me.

Anyway, the last conversation we had, I was actually on my way down to that bar to attend the open mic night for writers a couple years prior to March of 2020, just to kind of scope it out and see, you know, what it was all about. And I was bringing with me some of my poetry with the hopes of maybe getting up there and sharing some of it.

And one of the last things he said to me before we hung up was not to be afraid to do so. And he said, they're just people, man. And that always really stuck with me and I incorporated that in some capacity into Clean actually. And even though I didn't end up getting up on stage that night, and wasn't able to do so in March of 2020, either, I hope that by writing Clean, and sharing my story, and doing things like this podcast, that I've made him proud and, you know, can keep his memory alive in some way.

Mike: You know, what you just said, you write in your forward, you have four words, right? And one of them is what are you afraid of? That's a very powerful way to start the novel.

Michael: Yeah, I appreciate it. And that's kind of the conversation that the forward, yeah.

Mike: Well, can I ask you, Michael?

Michael: Go ahead.

Mike: It's a novel, but how much of you is in the main character, Cameron? And here's the other part that I loved about it. While it takes place over a period of time, instead of focusing on things like high school, college, work, it focuses instead on thoughts and feelings and people and I think that's what makes it really powerful. So how much of you is in Cameron, the main character?

Michael: There is a lot of me in Cameron. The thoughts, the feelings, the internal dialogue, a lot of his personality in general. Most of the events and the other characters have been fictionalized, to some degree or another, but the inner life of Cameron is more or less the same as what I experienced. With some exceptions of course. You know, his story is in essence my story.

Mike: Yeah.

Michael: Even if the external circumstances and events differ slightly between his story and mine.

Mike: Well, one of your chapters is called "Never Ending Circles." What's a never ending circle?

Michael: That just felt to me like such a fitting analogy for the vicious cycle of life as an active addict or alcoholic. You know, it's like you wake up, you drink, you do drugs if you got 'em. If not plot and scheme, how to get some, then drink and do drugs, then say it's the last time, then plot and scheme, then drink more, then do more drugs, then repeat till the end of the day. Go to bed. You say, tomorrow I'm not gonna live like this anymore, and then you wake up and start the whole process over. So, yeah, to me, never ending circles just sort of encapsulates that, you know, repetitive thought loops and patterns of behavior and, you know, the things that seem to never change, even if you desperately want them to at times.

And, you know, it just kind of signified the permanence and the hopelessness of it all, or at least, you know, as far as what it feels like when you're in it. Yeah, just like being stuck on this Ferris wheel or hamster wheel that just keeps going around and around, and you're powerless to get off this stupid ride that's not any fun, and you're miserable, but you're just like, you're in it, you know? And it feels like there's just no escape.

Mike: Well, you say at one point high low repeat. Right?

Michael: Right.

Mike: I had a kid one time when I was running a group and I used the word high and he corrected me and he said, you know, most of us when we first started using, used to get high and then we started using to just feel normal, and now most of us use just to not feel like crap all day long. I, I thought that was a pretty good description of progression.

Michael: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, yeah, it's really not a high at the end. And even if it does feel a little good, it's so brief that calling that high, a high is a little misleading. It's more like you said, being normal or not getting sick, or just like being able to function, or something like that. But definitely not a high.

Mike: Well, isn't that interesting? You say high, low, repeat. Well, which of those do you spend the most time in?

Michael: In my experience, and, you know, arguably in the majority of other people's experience, I would say the low for sure.

Mike: Yeah. Without, and again, I'm not giving away too much of the novel here, 'cause you gotta read it people. But I love the line, and I'm gonna quote it: "It's hard to see the problem when the problem convinces you it's the solution also."

Michael: Yeah. Thank you.

Mike: That is yeah. Does that not describe addiction in a heartbeat?

Michael: It felt like it did to me, or at least it felt like it captured a certain stage in Cameron's understanding of his addiction, which was at the time, you know, what I was implying with this line was that drugs and alcohol were the problem and they had also convinced Cameron that they were the solution.

Which I think it's a little deeper than that. But at this point in the story, Cameron doesn't understand that. And the line also applies more broadly. You know, you hear a lot of people say like, well, I'm the problem or I'm my biggest enemy and things along those lines. And there's actually a part in Clean where Cameron comes to a similar realization as well.

And you know, just as often in today's culture we hear that we are also the solution. Which to me doesn't really make sense. I think it was Albert Einstein that said something along the lines of, no problem can be solved by the same level of consciousness that created it. Which I think speaks pretty well to this.

And you know, obviously every illustration breaks down at some point, but, you know, I think part of the reason a lot of recovery programs are so successful and you see people getting and staying sober all over the place is because we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore sanity.

You know, even if we are the problem, we are not the solution. So that means the solution has to come from outside of us. It's not within us. You know what I mean?

Mike: Yeah. And you mentioned that Cameron doesn't see at that time. You know, I think that's what you just said. It's interesting because there are, as you read it, you go, yeah, he's not seeing stuff very clearly. But that's really hard to communicate, I think, but you do such a good job of it, where as a reader, you do see stuff like, God, why doesn't -, and as a family member you see stuff, why don't they just get it? And they don't.

And I think at one point, after he gets out of rehab, Cameron's talking to his best friend, Everett, and Everett tells him that two of their fellow patients has died from overdoses.

Michael: Hmm.

Mike: And we see that a lot now, right?

Michael: Right.

Mike: And you would think, right, Michael? That okay, that's the wake up call for most people that could have been me. But even that's not a wake up call, is it?

Michael: Yeah, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be in a lot of cases.

Even though logically you would sure think it would be. But you know, addiction doesn't seem to follow logic. And it's like you can see these people dying around you and see all these horrible consequences and, you know, results of how you're living and just really your whole life falling apart and still think that it can't happen to you or that you know, there's no other way. And however it goes, you're just kind of, you're committed at a certain point and it's like you can't, back to the hamster wheel or the Ferris wheel, it's like you can't get off this ride.

And you know, I think it really speaks to the powerlessness that you feel when you're in active addiction or alcoholism and, you know, that's where we start in recovery. Step one. We are powerless over our addictions. And so, yeah, while logically it seems like that should be a wake up call, I mean, in the thick of it, you know, drinking or using is about as much of a choice as breathing or eating. And if you hear people are dying all around you, it's probably not gonna stop you from breathing or eating.

Mike: Hmm.

Michael: So I'm afraid, yeah, it doesn't seem to be the wake up call that you might think it would be. Because, you know, it presumes the ability to think rationally, and to make logical decisions, and the power of choice, which don't exist for the active addict or, you know, at least are severely stunted or inhibited,

Mike: You know, and it takes a long time in that low, the high-low repeat, it takes a long time in that low. We've had people on here who have talked about all of a sudden waking up and looking around and going, what happened to time?

I think about halfway through the novel Cameron writes a letter, it's his first letter to Rachel, who he is thrilled about, and he tells her how long he's been struggling with addiction. And as I was reading it, I was like, what? I mean, it seemed like no time at all, as you read the novel and you realize it's been a long time, years blur together, don't they?

Michael: Yeah, they absolutely can and do. And you know, also, like they say in recovery meetings, when you share your story, you should talk about what your life was like, what happened, and then what your life is like now. And, you know, some similar framework to that.

And I didn't wanna spend too much time in the book talking about what Cameron's life was like. Only as much as was necessary to sort of paint the picture and make the subsequent parts believable in the context of the story and make sense. You know, sometimes you run into people that love sharing war stories as they're called.

Mike: Yep.

Michael: Just a lot of junky pride and I actually talked about that in the book as well, but I wanted to stay away from that. Even though in reality I find myself doing that sometimes and it always just leaves me with sort of a bitter taste in my mouth and just makes me feel kind of icky. You know, the truth is I did have a lot of fun and funny times in the beginning, and it started off super innocent, but, I didn't want it to seem like I was romanticizing or glamorizing that lifestyle because look where it ultimately led me, you know, and led Cameron.

So yeah, definitely the years can blur together. But also I didn't start at the beginning of the story or spend too much time in the story building up to the what happened part.

Mike: Yeah, I wanna talk a little bit about the relationship with Rachel without, although I think it's pretty self-evident. Why Michael, do you think it's comes as a surprise to people in the throes of their addiction when healthy people don't want to hang around him?

Michael: Oh man. Good question. At least for me, when I was in such an unhealthy place and had never really known anything different, I think I assumed I was more or less similar to other people. Sort of like how when I was drinking and using, I just assumed that's how everyone else lived, because that's how everyone I knew lived.

So I just assumed that's the only way there is to live. It's not a perfect analogy, but it sort of answers your question. Like when I was in a super unhealthy spot, I just didn't realize the gap or the chasm even that existed between me and other people that were in much healthier places.

You know, things like emotional intelligence, and general capacity and resiliency, and things like that. But even everyday things like shaving or doing laundry or paying bills, like I didn't do any of that stuff sober, but here I am just assuming that like, well, I'm generally the same as, you know, other people and can handle the same amount of life as other people.

And yeah, I mean, when you start drinking and doing drugs at such a young age, when your brain's still forming and developing, it does stunt your development in a lot of ways. And so, you know, when I'm 26 or 27 getting sober, I'm probably more comparable to like a 15 or 16 year old, in terms of like emotional intelligence and maturity and that kind of thing.

But yeah, at the time, I didn't really realize that. And neither does Cameron, so it comes as an utter shock to him when this much healthier person, Rachel, doesn't share that viewpoint and they start to experience some friction in the relationship as a result.

Mike: You know, what a great word, chasm. Maybe you could use that as your next novel title. Because I think there is that chasm, you're exactly right. You know, if you're 26, would you date a 15 year old? Well, no, let's just not go there. But yeah, you know, that is what it's like, and I think most people don't understand that.

You know, what if then that 26 year old has children?

Michael: Right.

Mike: And their spouse expects them to parent like a 26 year old and their parenting like a 15 year old.

Michael: Yeah.

Mike: It's not cool at all. So why then, why was Rachel's acceptance so important to Cameron? Why is the acceptance of those healthy people so important to somebody who's using?

Michael: I think for Cameron it was so important because he was in such a fragile state and had already lost so much and was, in essence, starting life over. Very unsure of himself and everything else and everyone really. I think he would've latched onto anyone that came along, but it just so happened to be Rachel, who wasn't just anyone.

I mean, she was special and seemed to really understand him and see him and flaws and all and accept him, you know, and also I think she gives him a vision of the kind of person he might become, or just the possibilities that might present themselves to Cameron if he sticks to the path. So that is one reason. And, you know, he also has never really opened up in a dating context to anyone like he does with Rachel, so her acceptance or rejection has significant implications for him, yeah.

Mike: Boy, I love what you just said. So even if the relationship doesn't continue, having it and seeing what could be makes that relationship, even though it's temporary, really valuable.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think it provides Cameron with a very tangible taste of what the future might hold and serves as a very powerful motivator for him to really start to get serious about his sobriety. Because at the time, he's not able to do it for himself.

And I remember feeling similarly, you know, when I first got out of rehab and those first several months or year or whatever, however long it was, I really wanted to stay sober desperately, but I just did not have the ability to care about myself enough to do it for myself. So I needed these external motivators, so to speak. Things like, you know, a relationship or my family or, you know, things of that nature. So yeah, I think it's really, really powerful for Cameron when she comes along in his life and the story.

Mike: You know, I mean, he does experience death, right, from his friends. How is somebody dying similar to or different from losing a relationship?

Michael: Yeah, yeah. That's another good question. I think for me, they both feel like forms of rejection or abandonment, you know, especially if you've already been wounded or have a history in those areas, and they both feel very personal but I think maybe in slightly different ways.

So in the specific instances, talked about in Clean, you know, Cameron potentially losing this relationship with Rachel would feel much more directly personal because if that happens, she will have made a choice to leave him.

Whereas, you know, somebody dying it doesn't really have anything to do with you in a sense, it's not like they chose to leave you, even though it is very personal, it's personal in more of an indirect sense, you know? And, you know, both losing a relationship and somebody dying have definitely a sense of permanence, and even though the relationship, assuming your ex is still alive, might not seem as final, I think it is still pretty final and is its own kind of death. I think in both cases too, there's a tendency to blame ourselves. At least that's been my experience.

Mike: Well, we all spend a lot of time thinking of what we could have done differently, right?

Michael: Yeah, for sure.

Mike: Somewhere through the book, Cameron goes to an AA meeting and he makes a comment about the beverages, which I thought was great. Go ahead.

Michael: Yeah. Talking about the watered down coffee. Yeah, definitely a broad generalization, but you think knowing how to make coffee would come with a territory, right?

Mike: I thought, anybody who's ever been to a meeting will just relate to that. You know, that's the one where you go, yeah, he's been to meetings.

Michael: You know, in their defense though, the coffee machines are typically very old and the coffee's cheap, and some people might like it watered down, but you know me, like I want a cup of coffee to punch me in the face, especially early on in recovery, I wasn't trying to coffee flavored water.

Mike: Yeah. You know, it's funny when I was working in the last treatment center that I worked in, the people inpatient, they would get out of the hospital and transport them over to an AA meeting. And, you know, at first, newly in recovery, like first few days, nobody wanted to go. I don't want to go there, I'm not gonna go. And the patients who've been there a while said, coffee and cigarettes, and then they'd run to the van. It was interesting.

Michael: Gosh. Yeah, no, I remember in rehab we would have 15 or 20 minute breaks in between all the activities and just everybody collectively just funnels outside to smoke cigarettes in between all the breaks, and yeah, coffee and cigarettes are like your fuel when you're definitely early on in recovery.

Mike: Yeah. You know later in the book, Cameron has a conversation with his brother, Dev. And I also found that was really interesting. And I think people who have loved ones in addiction will find it interesting, too. People who are in a relationship with somebody who's recovering oftentimes walk on eggshells, but they have to learn how to take care of themselves also, right?

Michael: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think there's a tendency for friends and family members to almost become addicted to the addiction of their loved one. And, you know, most times it might be their first time dealing with anything of the sort firsthand, and addicts are master liars and manipulators, but can also be super sweet, and charming, and fun and funny and, you know, just all around awesome people like anybody else. So it's very confusing for those closest to us to navigate, and we talked about all the highs and lows earlier, and it's just a whirlwind of confusion.

And even if we're being honest and straightforward, you know, most times we've lost whatever trust we had with our friends and family members, so It leaves them in a precarious situation of wanting to help but not really being sure when to help or how to help, or even how to offer help in a way that will be received, you know, and proved to actually be helpful.

Mike: You know, that's a, oh boy, a lot of great points. That's a great point, too, if you have relationships with somebody who's recovering, I think you also, it takes a long time before the person is like, well, can I say this without risking their recovery?

And you get that sense from Dev where he's holding back, holding back, holding back, 'cause he doesn't want Cameron to topple over again.

Michael: Right.

Mike: Cameron doesn't realize that, right?

Michael: No, not at all. I mean, he's very much in his own world and I mean, understandably so, because he is trying to rebuild his world and it is sort of all consuming and his problems just sort of dwarf those of anyone else around him, and I think he's so used to approaching relationships in terms of what can I get from this person? How is this person gonna serve me? So he's not, you know, other people's needs aren't even on his radar.

Mike: That's Yes. Right. I mean, if he's barely aware of his own, right?

Michael: Yeah. He is still learning how to, yeah. Put language to his own or how to feel his feelings and just, how to live sober. I mean, I think there's a big difference between not doing drugs and not drinking, and living sober.

Mike: Big time. And, you know, if you can't, if you're barely on the edge of realizing that, then, you know, I love all those conversations that families have, it's like, why don't you just, or why don't you know? And it's like, whoa, whoa. That's part of the chasm, right?

Michael: Right?

Mike: I'll be there in another five years, gimme a minute.

Michael: Yeah, and you know, for me there's, I've always been quite a perfectionist, so there was this pressure, I remember feeling early on of just like having to do everything at once and just, you know, wanting to expedite the process. But the reality is, is that it is a process and that it takes a lot of time, you know, and I'm still learning a lot of things and have so far to go, even though I've just celebrated my seventh year of sobriety in July.

Mike: Congratulations. You know, can I ask you, since you obviously made it through college and in the novel, you realize Cameron, through all of this, 'cause it's never talked about, he made it through college. Do you remember college?

Michael: Yeah, I do. Pieces of it at least, some of it's a blur for sure. But yeah, I was a highly functioning drug addict. I mean, I remember getting high and doing six to eight hours of engineering homework or studying for a big test all night. School always came sort of naturally for me, but I definitely put in some work too. But yeah, I was a very functioning drug addict for a lot of years.

Mike: Yours and my brains are different. If I were to try to do one minute of engineering homework, I would fall asleep, so.

Michael: Well, I definitely nodded off a time or two, but, yeah.

Mike: You know, he gets a sponsor, Cameron gets a sponsor, Andy. And I also like, there's a part where he picks up Andy's AA book, or I don't, you don't say, but it could be a One Day At A Time or the Big Book or whatever, and notices that it's dogeared, highlighted, marked up. And if you ever look at somebody who's in recovery, that's not unusual at all, right?

Michael: Right.

Mike: Well, talk about that for a minute. Why mark up a book? Why keep going back over the same thing and highlighting something new?

Michael: Well, I mean, in light of what we just talked about, how sometimes it takes a while to realize certain things and it's sort of like peeling back layers of an onion.

You know, like I remember the first time I read some of the recovery literature, it definitely felt like it was talking about me and telling my story. You know, the greater I was able to understand myself and my story, and just the things I had been through and was going through and feeling and thinking and all of the things that come along with being in recovery, the more things, different things might jump out at, me or might hit me in a slightly different way depending on, you know, what I was going through at the moment.

So yeah, I think it becomes sort of like your bible in a sense. And the words almost feel alive and very active. And the more you read them, the more they sink in, perhaps, the more they might hit differently, the more you're able to live it out, in a sense.

Mike: You know, I think that's a great observation and so accurate. Not that it's the same thing at all, but I've read several series of novels several times in my life, and depending on what age I was and part of my life I was in, it seemed like a brand new novel. You know, like the first time I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, I was really young and it was just an adventure thing. And then, you know, after I got into history and became a history teacher, you read it and you go, oh, there's parallels all over here. Why didn't I see those the first time?

Michael: Right.

Mike: I can, even though it's a novel, I can actually see people doing that with your novel because there's snippets where you're reading and it comes across as a diary, as I said, but you're reading it and all of a sudden you hit this line and you wanna stop and go, whoa, whoa. And you start thinking about your own stuff. And I can see people highlighting parts of your novel in the same way. You probably haven't gotten that feedback yet, though.

Michael: Minimally, you know, some of my friends and family I've seen their copies have a dog-eared page here or there, or if I flip through, I might see a, you know, a highlighter or two or something flagged.

My brother-in-law actually quoted one of the poems from Clean in the speech he gave at my wedding, which was pretty surreal.

Mike: Wow.

Michael: Yeah. I hope to continue to experience more of that and that, yeah, my book and my story can just keep getting out there and hopefully help people, you know? That's what it's all about, so.

Mike: Well, real change takes time, right?

Michael: A hundred percent.

Mike: What are you working on now?

Michael: Well, my second book called Crazy: A Journey to Recover A Lost Mind is in the publication process. So I'm hoping that is out later this year. It might be early next year. Yeah, that's kind of a sequel to Clean, slash prequel in some ways, slash a standalone its own thing. It's written in a very similar style, and you still have the addiction and recovery storyline, some of the same characters, but the main storyline deals more with mental health issues. So really excited about that.

Mike: They coexist, right?

Michael: Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. And then I'll be back in Canton, Ohio where I grew up this weekend for the Stark County Overdose Awareness Day, and I'll have a little table set up partnering with one of the local behavioral health and recovery centers back there. And I'll be selling my book at a discounted rate, selling Clean that is, and yeah, just continuing to try to spread the word and doing podcasts and things like this and just continuing to write and share my story.

Mike: Well, that seems like a better venue to deliver your work than in a bar.

Michael: Yeah, it probably, probably would be received a little better than in a bar.

Mike: I'm so sorry that you weren't able to deliver some of your recovering stuff in a bar in 2020. That would've been awesome.

Michael: Yeah, that would've been fun.

Mike: Well, Michael, when the new book is published let's do this again and talk about that.

Michael: Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'll keep you posted for sure.

Mike: That's great. You know, for those of you who are listening, you know how this goes. There are links to Michael's book attached to the podcast. I ordered it so you can, you can easily order it. It comes the next day 'cause that's our world today. It reads really fast, it's fascinating. I encourage you to get it.

Michael, thanks for doing this with us today. It was a lot of fun.

Michael: Thanks so much for having me on, I really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, it was a real treat.

Mike: Yeah. And for those of you listening, remember to listen in next time. Until next time, stay safe, be patient, and remember as Cameron found out, real change takes time.