Drawing a Hard Line

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: What happens when your talents, passion, and work collide head on with a substance use disorder? Well, that's a situation our guest faced a couple of years ago.

Mike: Jordan Davis is the Director of Operations for the Bloomington, Indiana Ice Cream Shop, the Chocolate Moose, and host of the podcast No dishes.

Mike: Welcome, Jordan.

Jordan: Hey, yeah. Thanks for having me, Mike.

Mike: I started giggling because I wanted to drop in and say, and it's also partially sponsored by the Chocolate Moose, which would fit today, right?

Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Mike: Well, let's start there. Before we get off on to what happened to you, talk a little bit about The Chocolate Moose. Man, I was reading about it. There's quite a history there. Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah. So, you know, I got very fortunate. I came out about 10 and a half years ago and you can see behind me this little drawing.

Mike: Yeah.

Jordan: Yeah. There we go. It was just a small little A frame stand in the middle of a parking lot, you know, and that stand you know, had been there since 55. I got torn down, I think in 2017, but we've been on this plot of land since 1933. So, you know, quite a bit of history. You know, it was called The Penguin, it was Maze Cafe, then The Penguin.

Jordan: And then since 83, we've been The Chocolate Moose. Right around that time, Michael Jordan was in Bloomington for the Olympic trials with Bob Knight at Assembly Hall. Sports Illustrated did a profile on him and said twice in their profile with Michael Jordan, it said his favorite place in Bloomington was The Chocolate Moose.

Mike: (laugh) Oh, that can't hurt!

Jordan: Yeah, no, exactly. And then our other little bit of lore we have is from Jack and Diane when he says, Sucking on a chili dog outside the Tasty Freeze. In the music video, it's actually at our stand. You know, so Mellencamp still lives here in Bloomington and comes around all the time.

Jordan: And so we've got the, should have the world's most famous chili dog from that alone, you know.

Mike: That is great. I did not read that. That was great.

Jordan: So we've expanded to a couple of locations and, you know, my 10 years and really have grown the business quite a bit, we started with the first weekly food truck events.

Jordan: It's called Bloomington Food Truck Friday, runs every Friday, April through the end of October. Draws, you know, a thousand or 2000 people every week. And yeah, it's just been really great to grow the business and come on with a brand. That means so much to so many people and just try not to screw it up.

Jordan: You know, in my first couple of weeks working, I had a couple of come by and You know, they're like, Hey, this is our 50th anniversary. So that's incredible. They said our first date was here. I was like, Oh, that's crazy! (laugh) So it means a lot, you know, The Chocolate Moose means a lot to a lot of people here in Bloomington.

Jordan: So I just try to do right by them.

Mike: Well, and when you're in a college town that's where people cut their teeth too. So I would imagine almost every football, basketball game, they come back and you, you try to do something to that place and they're going to be mad.

Jordan: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was a PR nightmare when, you know, the May family who had had this land since 33, when Doran Doran May, who, you know, built the stand with his father.

Jordan: And when he decided to sell the property and he's still alive and well here in town, but he's retired and he's up there in years. And he wanted to set up his family, you know, for, you know, generations potentially. And so he decided to sell the land to developers. And I had to do all the media to be like, Hey, like, this wasn't our decision.

Jordan: We're gonna try to make the most out of it. And Hey, if it was anyone's decision to make it to this guy's, you know, his family. So who are we to say that he shouldn't be able to set up his family in the long run? So we've made the most out of it. You know, now we have indoor seating and bathrooms. We still have a walk up window.

Jordan: And you know, all of the canvases in our dining room pay homage to our history, so we don't want it to be forgotten or lost but yeah, it was really, really tough when that stand had to come down, and now we're in, you know, the classic you know, four story retail on first floor. You know, top three are apartments that you see in a lot of places.

Mike: Sure. Well, and you also, I should mention this before I forget to do it. You also host a podcast yourself called No Dishes about culinary gems in in Bloomington, right?

Jordan: Yeah. So we started that. It sounds like you said, I know you said you've been going before we recorded for four years. We've been going for about four, a little over four years.

Jordan: We started in the middle of the pandemic. I've worked in a restaurant my whole life. You know, and originally the idea was to get people coming off of work and be like, here's a shot and a beer. How was work? You know? And we very quickly realized that was just gonna be a lot of complaining. (laugh) So we pivoted from that.

Jordan: So we did three audio only seasons in my apartment and this is before I went sober. So a lot of those old episodes that we still have up on Spotify, you know, we were cursing quite a bit and drinking and imbibing, you know, and then I went to rehab. And we'll dive in all that, but we ended up, you know, just got a new producer.

Jordan: The old producer was tired of my shit, and I don't blame him, you know, at the time. And so, new guy came on, we started doing video and really kind of took it much more seriously, and so now we're, you know, on Tuesday, on the 31st our last episode of season seven will come out. We'll have done 48 episodes this week.

Jordan: I think we're at 140 total, or I'm sorry, this year, then about 140 total audio video, and we'll do seasons eight and nine, which will be 40 total more episodes next year.

Mike: Well, let's get into your stuff. You know, like a lot of people who, you know, drink or whatever. At what point did you go, oh, this is starting to become an issue?

Jordan: Oh, man. I mean, it's tough. So in the industry, you know, so before I was with Chocolate Moose, I was serving and bartending and curating cocktail lists and, you know, wine lists and doing all that fun stuff, going to wine tastings. It was part of the job. And, you know, so it was just, I never, it's my, you know, I've always, I, I obviously reflect quite a bit and, you know, I'm torn because in what I've come to is I don't really think, I mean, I had, I abused alcohol 100%, but I don't think I was really ever got to the point of being an alcoholic.

Jordan: The problem was when cocaine came into the picture, and that's when any, as soon as you do one line of cocaine, you turn into an addict right away, you know so it was, I found my, I have no desire to do cocaine sober. So, the really nice part is that, so now I just avoid alcohol, and I have no desire to do cocaine.

Jordan: And it's not really super hard for me to avoid alcohol because that wasn't what the real issue was with. Again, I definitely abused it as many people in the industry do and have some very regrettable nights from drinking. And you know, I had a DUI back in 2013 when I was 23. You know, that wasn't enough to be my wake up call.

Jordan: You know, everyone has their own, their own point that they reach, you know? And so I had started to dabble with cocaine here and there back. You know, when I was 22, 23, and it would be, it was very sparing, very sparingly, you know, and then with, as with a lot of things, it's all about accessibility.

Jordan: I started to get to the point where it was around me all the time and really easy to get my hands on which is really problematic, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, I went years where I would do it a little bit here or there and. Maybe, you know, stay up for a day or two, you know, doing it and drinking to stay leveled out.

Jordan: So you're not tweaking. And it just got to the point, you know, where there was a few different times. There was one time, you know, where five years ago where I took six months off of and it never did coke and it was fine, you know, and then you just slowly kind of get back into it. And you know, as I mentioned in the article that you read, which kind of led us here you know, I would do it maybe once a month, you know, I'd get drunk and someone have it and the next thing you know, I'm in my apartment and more people, I text people and they bring me some by and you know, I'd be in denial about how much I would do.

Jordan: So I never did the bulk discount. I was always just getting one little gram at a time, you know, cause I'm like, Oh, this will, I'm just going to do this. I'll be done next to, you know, that same person's come over three or four times because you're just caught in that loop and then, so it would get to the point, you know, where I was maybe every other month.

Jordan: Would miss a day of work because I kind of just stayed up from the night before and I just didn't want to stop. And I just kept going and going and I would text or call or try to get whatever need covered, get covered. And, you know, in my mind, I'm like, I'm still, I'm pulling it off. And then, you know, I talked to my boss and my coworker and they're like, Hey, you're not, you're not really pulling it off.

Jordan: Like you're stressing, you're stressing us out like crazy, dude. Like you need to get your shit together. I don't know. Am I allowed to curse out here?

Mike: Oh yeah. And you, and you, and you BS'ed them, right? I got this. I got this.

Jordan: Yeah. Well, you're just like, okay, I was doing the work hard, play hard. You know, I was working 70 hour weeks.

Jordan: I've always been in kind of a grinder from a work standpoint, you know, I dropped out of college and I've worked my way up in the industry. Which is always what I aim to do. And I just, you know, work my ass off and work a lot of hours. And then that led to me justifying the party, you know, so I never, you know, I wasn't drinking at work.

Jordan: I wasn't doing coke here at work. I would just go, you know, go out one night, start it and then just keep going all the way through the next day and then come in and just hung over two days later, you know. And I just kind of kept getting away with it and it started becoming more and more frequent.

Jordan: And I was just really not happy with my life. I mean, I'd gotten up to 320 pounds and you know, most people think like, Oh, you're doing coke, like you're skinny. Those are people that are like doing little bits throughout the day, all day, every day. That's not what I was doing. You know, I was, I'd like to eat.

Jordan: I've got a podcast about eating, you know, so, and again, it's just, everyone's problems are different and what triggers them are, are different. And so it was just one of those things where I got to the point where, you know, I got over the years, you know, I've been here 10 years, there was two or three times I'd kind of gotten admonished or suffered some discipline of one sort or the other and got my shit together for a while and was fine and Then it just kind of came to this last time in 2022.

Jordan: And I just went out for a steak dinner with friends one night. And we had a great time that we go out to do karaoke and someone has coke and I do some, and next thing I know, I ended up doing it for over a week straight and I was just, just trying to burn it all down. I was just, I was tired. I was trying to get myself fired.

Jordan: I was convinced that I needed to move to a different city. I was so unhappy. And all I could think to do was just, okay, let's just burn it all down. At that point, my back would be up against the wall and I'll have no choice but to do it right, you know?

Jordan: And I was waiting for one of my friends to come knock on my door and like pull in, and no one did. No one did. They were texting me, they were calling me, but they were like, You're going to figure this shit out. You know, we'll we're going to let you kind of do it to yourself. And then, you know, after a solid, you know, it ended up being a solid, like 10 days had passed and I got ahold of you know, our owner who I had been in contact with one day, he would be, you know, really laying into me hard about what a piece of shit I was being, which I deserved.

Jordan: And then the next day he was being sympathetic and like, Hey, what's going on? And it was just kind of back and forth on, you know, Hey, pull your head out of your ass. And also, Hey man, I'm genuinely worried about you. Like what, what is going on? You know? So he came and picked me up and took me over to a local rehab facility.

Jordan: You know, put, put the six grand for the 10 day detox on his credit card.

Mike: He did?

Jordan: Yeah, I know. I can't begin to tell you enough how grateful I am for this for this man. He's, he's helped me in so many ways, but yeah, I go go and do the the detox for five days. And then they move you over to the apartments where you have some roommates, start doing classes and all that.

Jordan: And at the end of 10 days, you know, They wanted me to sign all these papers saying I was going to do IOP and I was going to do this and that and I wasn't willing to do that. I was just like, you know what? I'm, in my mind, I've hit my rock bottom. I'm going to be good from here. I know what I need to do from here.

Jordan: And so I didn't sign any other stuff. I kind of had to raise hell. I was fortunate, actually, that I didn't have health insurance at the time because otherwise it would have kept me. But I, because of me being like, no, I'm not going to pay you, they weren't willing to keep me. So I was able to kind of get out after 10 days and I started meeting with the therapist once a week which I actually had met with him once right before I went off the deep end for that last bender.

Jordan: And that was part of the reason where I'm like, oh, I can go party. I'm making steps. I met with a therapist, you know, so silly. So silly. I'm there, you know, I met with a therapist, like, I'm doing the right, I can, I can party a little bit tonight, you know. So no, I start meeting with him weekly, and I start going to one meeting a week.

Jordan: It was called Dharma Recovery. It uses like Buddhist principles. It's an hour a week. It was actually at the rehab facility. And because I, you know, back when I had my DUI in 2013, I had some court ordered AA classes assigned. AA wasn't for me. I wasn't I know a lot of people that's been very grateful and it just wasn't for me.

Jordan: And so I didn't really want to go back to try that. So I did the one once a week with my therapist, once a week with the Dharma recovery, where about 30 minutes of that hour was meditation, which I really enjoyed. And then, yeah, just time went on. And I started meeting with the therapist less, going to the meeting less.

Jordan: And so I've been, as of August 1st was two years sober with, you know, no alcohol, no cocaine. No hard drugs. And so I'm coming up on, yeah, two and a half years.

Jordan: I don't go to any meetings anymore. I DJ, so I'm in the bars. I call bingo. I'm like, I'm in the bars multiple times a week. And I'm just, I'm very fortunate because it is.

Jordan: Everyone has their own struggles. So I'm very fortunate that I'm still able to do a lot of the things that I love to do, and it's not prohibitive to my sobriety you know, in the long term.

Mike: Well, I always ask this, somebody like that, because you cannot not be around this stuff.

Jordan: Right.

Mike: So that had to be just a little nerve wracking DJing and being around bars and thinking, can I do this?

Mike: So no cravings? What do you do if you find your mind wandering a little bit?

Jordan: So the thing, what I found in the past, it's, it's all just like that hard line. As long as you don't leave yourself wiggle room, I look for me, I've been fine. It was like, to me, it's like, I just don't drink now. And that's just what I do.

Jordan: And it's, it's just a non starter. You know, I got out of rehab on a Tuesday. That Thursday I went and did my Thursday night bingo in a college bar with 200 college kids. I used to usually get drunk right along with them while I was calling bingo, you know, making jokes. And but part of it was the anxiety, you know, being in my early thirties at the time with 200 college kids on a microphone for an hour and a half, no matter how many times you do it, you're going to have some anxiety.

Mike: Sure.

Jordan: And so I used to drink along with them, but I went out against my therapist's advice and he's like, you shouldn't go into a bar two days after getting out of rehab. But I felt pretty confident, again, where like no one knows me like I know me. I know that I reached my rock bottom. I feel very convicted that I'm going to be fine.

Jordan: And I went in and I was more loose on the mic than I had ever been. I was having more fun than I had ever had. And that was huge for me. Because over the fall, you know, next coming months, the first few months of sobriety, I would go out with friends and realize that all the times that I went out and had a good time wasn't because of the alcohol.

Jordan: It's because I was in a good mood and, you know, had energy. All the times I went out and didn't have a good time, wasn't because I drank a certain kind of alcohol. It's because I was tired. I wasn't in a good mood. So like if I can still go out and have a good time and it's all about, am I in a good mood or like having a good time if I'm just in a good mood and have energy, you know, so it's not, it was never really the alcohol that made those.

Jordan: Those good memories that you look back on, you know, it wasn't, it was just the people you were with and the mindset that you were in. And so that was huge for me. And that builds, it builds and builds. The more you go out and have a good time. And again, it's not for everybody. Not everybody should go out if in their sobriety journey.

Jordan: But I've been, again, very fortunate that I've been able to and it's but yeah, that first night, just getting on that microphone and realizing like, Oh, I don't need that shit. Like I can do this without the alcohol and still have just as much fun, if not more fun.

Mike: What do you do on the flip side?

Mike: If you're having a bad day, what do you use now as coping mechanisms? To bring yourself back to even keel. Do you still meditate?

Jordan: No, you know, I don't, I should. I, cause I really enjoy it. I just, I really keep myself very, very busy. You know, I've got, I work a lot for this job. I've got about three side hustles.

Jordan: I stay, I'm on a couple of boards. I just, I try to stay really busy. And when I have a shitty day, I just, I very quickly. I just know that drinking's not, not gonna help anything. And for me, it's all about the streak. I don't want to ruin the streak. I've got the streak going, you know what I mean?

Jordan: Like, I'm not doing that. Why would I waste that for one cocktail? You know what I mean? I went to Puerto Rico. I could have easily drank, you know, and nobody would have known, but like, I don't want that. I don't want to have to have. I don't want to have to lie about my sobriety. I don't want to have to have that back in my head.

Jordan: Like, oh, I've been sober for two and a half years, but I did go on this vacation, got hammered a couple of times, you know, like, and I don't know if that would break the seal. You know, if I went and had one cocktail on vacation, who knows? It might all be over when I come back. And I'm like, and then I start dabbling again.

Jordan: And because it's something I've thought about, I've thought about drinking again in the future. And if I could do that in a reasonable way without it leading to cocaine or, you know, negative impact on my life. Until I'm a hundred percent confident that it wouldn't lead to that. I'm not going to do it.

Jordan: And I don't think I'll ever be a hundred percent confident. You know.

Mike: That is such a boy, that's a podcast in itself. I get asked that question all the time. And my answer Jordan is maybe... since you don't know, and it could kill you, right?

Jordan: Yeah. And things have just gone so well for me and that's where I'm also very lucky, very fortunate because not everybody has that.

Jordan: Some people come out and they're doing sobriety, you know, taking on sobriety for the first time and they're six months into it and some tragic stuff happens and they look like, I've been very, very, very lucky for the people I have around me, for my family, for my friends, for my coworkers, to where things have just progressively gotten better over the last two and a half years to where.

Jordan: I would be such a fool to try to risk losing that or like not, you know, kind of chase that high of continued self improvement of buying a house of, you know, things that I never would have thought I could have achieved two and a half years ago.

Mike: You mentioned it earlier. I came across your stuff on an article I was reading about staying sober during the holidays.

Mike: And they come up every darn year. Right? The same articles. And because the presumption is, well, of course people celebrate with alcohol. Of course they celebrate with substances. Don't you find it curious that, that it almost like you have to make an excuse why you don't celebrate with substances?

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's ingrained in us in our society. Where that's what you do. You celebrate. And that was one of the things for me when we did that steak dinner. I can't remember what it was, but we were celebrating. I wasn't one that drank when I was down.

Jordan: I was one that drank when I was up. Cause I'm just like, yeah, like I'm feeling like I would need a reward. It was a reward system, you know? And you mentioned earlier and I didn't, I meant to touch on it. I still do have cravings, even though that wasn't necessarily like, but it's more, it's more of like, man, I'd love to just taste that again, or like I'll smell my friend's beer.

Jordan: And it's just like, that's the part I do miss. It's just that being able to have a, a nice, like taste, a nice Pinot Noir or something like that, it's not so much the feeling of getting drunk. It's the. Like just the taste of a nice, well put together cocktail or something like that. And that's why, you know, I have those thoughts about in the future.

Jordan: But again, like I said, until you're a hundred percent sure, which you never will be, it's not going to be worth the risk.

Mike: Yeah. I think a hard line, I think that's such great advice. The hard line is so important. I work with a woman a long time ago who started, deviated from her hard line with one Miller Sharps, a non alcoholic, low alcoholic beer.

Mike: And before long. Everything went boom. But that's, you know, moving off the line.

Jordan: It's a slippery slope, yeah. It's just cause I've talked with quite a few friends over the last couple years that they're like, hey I've thought about stop drinking this or that, I'm just like it's just a hard, it has to be a hard line.

Jordan: The second you give yourself any wiggle room, you're screwed.

Mike: Well, what do you do? Speaking of friends, you have you work in an industry, right? You have tons of friends who still use. What did you say to those people who were using Coke especially selling to you? How did you form a hard line with those relationships or were they respectful?

Jordan: Very respectful. Again, one of those things that I've just been very blessed and fortunate is surrounded by understanding people. Even my old coke dealer, you know, I'll see him out and he's genuinely happy for me, you know cause he came by, he dropped off that last bag on that 10 day bender and was just like, dude, what are you okay?

Jordan: You know what I mean? Like he still gave it to me, but it was genuinely just like, what is going on, man? Like you haven't left your apartment, you know? And. Yeah, it's, it is weird. I still see him out and about and I see other people that I've partied with over the years. And again, and I've been, I've been around a few times now where, yeah, there's been coke out and I see it.

Jordan: And that's, that's weird. It is, it is very weird. The weirdest part for me is I, it's been over two and a half years since I've done it. And I don't really think about it in my day to day. Cause again, I don't, I'm just busy and I don't really want to do it unless I have that drunk buzz where that's when it sounds like a good idea, but I still have dreams.

Jordan: I still have dreams about it. It's crazy. Like I haven't waited tables in over 10 years. And I still have dreams about waiting tables and I'll, I will wake up and I'll, I'll feel like I screwed it all up and it'll take me a good five minutes to be like, whoa, that was just a dream. You didn't actually screw up, but yeah, I still have dreams of getting drunk and doing coke and I'm just like, when is that going to stop?

Jordan: You know, it's, I thought for sure by now I'd be past it.

Mike: I don't know. It was probably 15 years after my mom quit smoking and she was at my house. And one night, middle of the night, I hear her hand pounding on the nightstand. And I know she's dreaming. She's looking for a cigarette. And I burst out laughing.

Mike: I burst out laughing. And from the other room, I said, Hey, Ma, you quit! And she said, Oh, shut up! And went back to sleep. And she said she was dreaming. That's, it's not unusual. That's, you're not the first, nor will you be the last person who says they dream about it. Its just there.

Jordan: I mean, you carry that. I said five minutes, but I mean, you carry that for the good, easily the first part of your day.

Jordan: Just internally in your body of just that stress where you're just like, something's wrong, but I don't know what it was. And then it's like, Oh, well, it was just this thing that wasn't reality. But yeah, it's, it's wild.

Mike: Well, and speaking of celebrating, I'll let you go with this. I've been dying to ask this, right?

Mike: So The Chocolate Moose, well, one next time I come to Bloomington, I'm stopping there, right?

Jordan: Yeah, absolutely, my treat.

Mike: Do you have a flavor that celebrates sobriety? And if, ifnot, why not?,

Jordan: That's a great call. I don't know. We, we don't. We don't. I've never honestly thought about doing it.

Mike: You will now.

Jordan: I was going to say, I've got the rest of our management team and our owner who walked in a few minutes ago, who's the guy that you know, I owe so, so much to I will bring that up.

Jordan: I think that would be a good, a good thing to promote. There's a lot of really great organizations here in Bloomington.

Mike: Oh yeah!

Jordan: You know, Bloomington's got a ton of substance abuse issues that are very heavy for a lot of people and a lot of great organizations here. So we definitely could partner with one of them to try to promote the work that they're doing.

Mike: Oh, it'd be great. Bill W's favorite. Just call it that and call it a day.

Jordan: Yeah, there we go.

Jordan: Mike, can I, am I allowed to ask you just very brief about your story?

Mike: Sure. Well, I grew up around it. And so I made the opposite decision when it was offered to me. I said, uh uh, I don't want any part of this because I don't want to end up like the people that I lived with, which is, and what I found through my career, I've worked with it.

Mike: I wanted to stay away from it. I started in education and then went to work in counseling. And you know what? No matter what you work with, if you work with people, you end up working with substance abuse. You just do. Whether you're a therapist, whether you're a counselor, whether you're a minister, whether you're a nurse, whether you're a doctor, a business owner, you're going to work with it, and you better know how to handle it.

Mike: So finally, I just gave into it, ran a couple of treatment centers, and then they went under. We don't have the same world that we did, because insurance doesn't pay for a lot of stuff anymore.

Jordan: Oh.

Mike: And so I started doing prevention work instead. And this is just part of that. And these, this has been the most delightful, probably the last chapter in my career, is doing something like this.

Mike: I still speak to tens of groups, and I love hearing the stories, Jordan, they're just outstanding.

Jordan: I love it. Well, yeah, I mean, that's my favorite part of doing my podcast is just the people. I, and just like hearing their stories. You know, it's a different focus. We're focused on the restaurant industry and but yeah, it's just, I've had people that I've known for years.

Jordan: And I get to know so much more about them when they come to the podcast. So it's really enjoyable, but yeah, I'm so glad you reached out and I get to share my story. And if anyone ever wants to reach out to me about anything, I'm happy to pass along my contact info and help in any way that I can.

Mike: A perfect... people who listen all the time, know this, but we will put the links to both the No Dishes and to The Chocolate Moose and your contact information on the blurb to the podcast.

Mike: And for those of you who are traveling through Bloomington, just stop in. The menu looks unbelievable. And the ice cream looks unbelievable, too. And that's from somebody who comes from the Dairy State, so there you go.

Jordan: I appreciate it. Yeah, that's the that's the statement of approval that I'm proud to, proud to wear.

Jordan: I will say, in my first two years working here, I put on 80 pounds.

Mike: (laugh) I didn't even want to go there.

Jordan: You know, they say don't trust a skinny chef. If a skinny guy sells you ice cream, you don't want it.

Mike: (laugh) That is great. Well, thanks, Jordan.

Mike: You know, Jordan's story about finding new life happens all the time. For those of you listening and watching, I hope you find life and support, as Jordan did, wherever you are.

Mike: And for his boss, there's something magical that happens. Somebody like that, he will now, for the rest of his life, walk through a wall for that guy. Right?

Jordan: Absolutely. 100%. Yeah.

Mike: For those of you listening, thanks for listening. Be safe and go get a cone.

Jordan: Thanks, Mike.