Raised just outside Frankfurt, Germany, Stella Terner was allowed to sample alcohol from a young age by dipping her finger in her parent’s beer and wine. She could buy beer at sixteen. The norm during her teenage years was to not drink to excess but to have a glass of wine with dinner. Now at the University of Mannheim, the same cultural norms are in place: no drinking to get drunk, no drinking just to drink. Stella compares the culture of alcohol consumption she grew up with with her observations as a foreign exchange student in the United States and the American drinking culture. Other countries and cultures address alcohol and other drug usage differently than in the US. What a culture allows is often what happens. If you or a loved one has a substance use disorder, help is available. Locally, resources can be found at 211 Wisconsin: https://211wisconsin.communityos.org. You can also find AA meetings here: https://mtg.area75.org/meetings.html?dist=7 and NA meetings here: https://namilwaukee.org/meetings/
[00:00:00] [Jaunty Music]
[00:00:12] Mike: Welcome everyone to Avoiding the Addiction Affliction. A series brought to you by the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan. I speak a lot about drug and alcohol usage. And I always get a response from people that don't know any better, that our culture is the way it is because you know, here and there and we have a heritage and it's not like that in any other place from people that have never been to that place.
[00:00:36] So I thought it would be interesting to have a few conversations with actual people who live in some places that get mentioned the most to me. These aren't research or scientific conversations, just chats with people who actually live there. Today I'm really delighted to have as our guest Stella Terner. She's a college student at the University of Monheim in Germany.
[00:01:00] Her home is in Frankfurt, which she tells me is about an hour and a half away. And with colleges beginning here soon, I thought I'd be interested to compare university cultures also welcome Stella.
[00:01:11] Stella: Hi. Thank you.
[00:01:14] Mike: I, I can't remember. Are you a junior or senior at university?
[00:01:17] Stella: Well, we only do three years of university, so technically I would be a junior now, but I'm a senior at the same time.
[00:01:24] Cause I'll graduate next year. So yeah, just, I don't know. We only do three years, so I, we don't really have the whole like sophomore junior system.
[00:01:35] Mike: Then you're out, you're graduating.
[00:01:36] Stella: Yeah. So I'll, I'll be done. Yeah. About a year from now.
[00:01:41] Mike: What's your degree in?
[00:01:42] Stella: Business administration.
[00:01:44] Mike: Wow. And, and I, you told me that you're gonna do your last, is it your last year you're gonna do as a foreign exchange student?
[00:01:52] Stella: Well, not the entire year, so my fifth semester will be in Canada. And then for my sixth semester, which we, we always counted semesters, not really in years. So my last semester I'll be at the university of Monheim again, and then I write my bachelor thesis there.
[00:02:07] So yeah, I'll only be in Canada until December.
[00:02:11] Mike: You have to write a thesis for your bachelor's degree?
[00:02:14] Stella: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:15] Mike: Does it have to be approved?
[00:02:17] Stella: Yeah. It's yeah, it's a whole deal. [laugh] Yep.
[00:02:21] Mike: Wow, wow.
[00:02:22] Stella: Yeah.
[00:02:22] Mike: Now Stella, you and I know each other, so it, it, I, [laugh] I'm gonna have you do this just because. When Stella was in the United States, cause you were a foreign exchange student here in Wisconsin, too, right?
[00:02:33] Stella: Yeah. Yeah. I was there for my sophomore year high school
[00:02:36] Mike: Of high school. And when I met Stella, I said, you're not from Germany. Cause you speak better English than almost everyone I know here.
[00:02:44] Stella: That's not true. [laugh]
[00:02:46] Mike: [laugh] I bet everybody listening is already thought she's not from Germany. So just, just say hello, Mike or something in German, just so that we can be sure.
[00:02:57] Stella: Well, hi Mike. [speaking in German]. [laugh]
[00:03:05] Mike: [laugh] Yeah, I got the Hi Mike part. That's a...
[00:03:07] Stella: [laugh] OK.
[00:03:08] Mike: That's great. So, well, let's, let's just start a little bit, cause I hear a lot of comparisons to Germany when it comes to alcohol here. And especially with college, what what's legal, you could drink at what age? In Germany?
[00:03:23] Stella: We can drink. Well, it's counted in percentages of how much alcohol is in there.
[00:03:27] So we can drink beer, wine, any like low percentage stuff when we turn 16 and then like stronger alcohol is about starting from 18. And then there's a few more rules with driving. Like you have any alcohol in your system when you're under 21, but then you can have like a little bit. After that I think even then it's more strict than in the us, I believe.
[00:03:49] But yeah, that's the only, only thing that we associate with the age of 21. Other than that it's 16 and 18.
[00:03:55] Mike: So you could, could you buy beer by yourself at age 16?
[00:04:00] Stella: Yeah.
[00:04:01] Mike: I, you know, there are people listening to this who would go, oh my gosh, [inaudible] high school would be crazy. Was high school crazy with drinking because of that?
[00:04:09] Stella: Well, I would say cuz a, a lot of people, I, I get that response a lot, especially from Americans that are like, well, that must be crazy. Like you're not old enough to buy alcohol at that age. But honestly, because we're allowed to do it, I feel like it doesn't get us crazy cuz it's like, I feel like when it's not legal, you're much more tempted to just go overboard with it and here it's legal.
[00:04:29] And so you can just buy a little bit. Like have a fun evening with your friends and that's really it. But it's not as crazy, I would say so high school. I don't, I wouldn't say it was really crazy. Like there were parties and things going on. And yeah, but never really like any bad abuse with it or anything.
[00:04:50] Mike: When you were here in high school, did you observe any drinking here?
[00:04:55] Stella: Not really. I feel like with my grade, like the grade that I, that I was in, they started drinking the summer after I left. Like, I feel like the whole year I was there, it wasn't really a thing yet. Like they were too young for it technically.
[00:05:07] So it was weird for me because I had been drinking before I left. Even though I was technically too young, but that's not like I would, like, we drink with our parents. From a very early age. Like they let us try things. It's always like you, you, most parents do this thing where you can dip your finger into their wine or beer just to taste it.
[00:05:27] And you do that from a very young age. I don't know. [laugh] It's just a thing here. And so, yeah, I would drink like beer or wine from the age of 15. So it was weird when I got to the us and couldn't do that anymore. [laugh] But, ya.
[00:05:39] Mike: You know, i, I work a lot in schools, you know? And that's the year, what you just said is what I experience a lot.
[00:05:46] That it's between sophomore and junior year.
[00:05:48] Stella: Yeah.
[00:05:49] Mike: Where the drinking explodes in the United States and high schools.
[00:05:51] Stella: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:53] Mike: Why do you think, well, maybe you don't know why do you think that is?
[00:05:55] Stella: Not sure. I feel like it's when people start to feel like they're more mature, even though they probably aren't, [laugh] but they just feel more grown up.
[00:06:02] Like it's the last few years of high school. They probably wanna just experiment with things before college too. I feel like that's a huge thing because I feel like a lot of people wanna prepare in high school for college because everyone says it's like the whole big, crazy party scene there. [laugh] So that's probably why that is around the age.
[00:06:19] Also, I feel like in America, like the whole sweet 16 birthday is a very big deal. So that's when [laugh], like at the end of your sophomore year, most people turn 16 and I feel like, yeah, that's when you start driving. So you just feel more grown up. And I feel like that's when people start drinking, then most likely, but.
[00:06:36] Mike: You know, Milwaukee and Wisconsin has a huge German heritage.
[00:06:40] Stella: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:40] Mike: And so when you came here, did, did it look similar, feel similar? Cause a lot of people say who come here from elsewhere. Holy cow. The number of bars in your area are nuts, but did it seem normal to you or?
[00:06:56] Stella: I didn't really realize that to be honest.
[00:07:00] Other than, yeah. I wouldn't say it looks similar. Like it's still very different. I would also just get the response a lot, like, oh yeah, I'm German. And then it would be like their fifth and from some other place. And I'm like, oh yeah, right. You're German. [laugh] And the places like I did recognize a few things and like, don't, they have Oktoberfest in Milwaukee too and the, and a German Christmas market? That type of thing?
[00:07:25] Mike: Yeah. I mean, we have, well, we, and especially in the summer we have Fest upon Fest upon Fest.
[00:07:31] Stella: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:07:32] Mike: But you have Oktoberfest, so ours would look like a two dimensional version of that. Have you been?
[00:07:37] Stella: Yeah, I have not been myself. No friends of mine have been I don't know. I, I just never went.
[00:07:42] It's very crazy. It's very expensive. So a lot of people say it's not really worth it, but I do wanna experience it at some point. Like, I feel like it can't be German without going to Oktoberfest [laugh] at some point in your life.
[00:07:53] Mike: You know, you mentioned what you're allowed to do at an early age in that whole dipping the finger thing.
[00:07:58] That's not unusual here either.
[00:08:00] Stella: Yeah.
[00:08:00] Mike: When I'm in Wisconsin, a lot of kids in high schools, tell me their parents allowed 'em to take sips off of alcoholic beverages early. When I go to other states though, they look at me like I'm nuts.
[00:08:11] Stella: Okay.
[00:08:12] Mike: So it's pretty unique. But given that, do you have friends or do you know people in your high school and college who have gotten into trouble with substances?
[00:08:21] Stella: It does happen every once in a while, especially like there were instances when people would have to. Be picked up, go to the hospital because they had had too much to drink. Like it does happen. Carnival is a very big thing here. It's in February, people dress up, it's sort of, I would say it's our Halloween kind of. [laugh] You start very early in the day and you just drink throughout the whole day.
[00:08:42] It's very big and cologne where they have this special beer it's called Kuj. And they just drink all day long to drink beer all day long. And so a lot of people like end up not doing well with that [laugh]. So it does happen and it does happen from an early age. But at least for me, I don't have as many friends that would like end up in situations like that.
[00:09:03] I feel like yeah, but it does happen. I just, I wouldn't really say it's like an age thing. Like it happens to older people just as much as it does to younger people. At least that's what I see.
[00:09:13] Mike: Yeah. What I wanna talk about universities for a minute, cuz it's been a lot of parents here expect one thing and then get another one.
[00:09:22] It comes to university orientation. When you entered university, did they do any prep at all about drugs and alcohol? Did you get any education?
[00:09:32] Stella: No, not really.
[00:09:33] Mike: So it's just like whatever?
[00:09:35] Stella: Yeah. Which I feel like is also just because you don't start drinking when you're in college, like just like speaking from the legal perspective, you would start drinking way earlier in high school.
[00:09:48] So college isn't like a step where drinking just starts to become a thing. Like it starts way earlier. So yeah, it's not really talked about.
[00:09:57] Mike: So then that first week in college is not that much different than others. There weren't there wasn't just a huge drunk fest?
[00:10:05] Stella: No, I wouldn't say it's different.
[00:10:07] Like it, it's not different from what I experienced before. The only thing that's different is that you don't live with your parents anymore. And I guess there are some parents that are not as chill with their kids drinking. And so once you're alone, you can just do whatever. So that's really the only thing that changes, because once you go to university, you move out.
[00:10:25] But it's not like, I, I wouldn't say that the parties were much different from what I experienced in high school. Yeah, just a lot more people, bigger parties, but like, yeah, the alcohol use or anything didn't change.
[00:10:38] Mike: So the, the dropout rate here in the United States is at university is anywhere between 20 and 40% depending on where you go.
[00:10:48] And most of that is due to drinking and not going to classes. What do you experience?
[00:10:53] Stella: I don't think that drinking well. Probably has like, has a little bit to do with, with dropouts in some cases, but it's not, I wouldn't say it's the main reason I, I haven't looked at statistics, so I'm not sure about that, but I would say university or college is not.
[00:11:10] Like, I feel like in the US it felt very mandatory. Like once you would say, oh, I'm doing a gap here or not. I'm not going to college right away. Or I'm not going to college at all. Like people would just be like, oh my God, like, what are you doing with your life? You have to go to college. It's the only way to go.
[00:11:23] And here that's very different. Like most people do a gap year after high school don't start right away. Yeah. A lot of people do apprenticeships. That's still a huge thing. So university isn't like that big of a deal or that much of a must. I feel like. So when you do go to university, some people do it, just try it out and see if it's their thing.
[00:11:43] And so they drop out if they realize they don't really like the way of learning at their universities or they don't like what they pick to major in. But I would say that's like the, the main reason why people would drop out and then some people, because it's maybe not. The major they wanted to have picked, or it's not like what they're best at then they drop out because their grades drop.
[00:12:05] But it's, I wouldn't say it's because they drink too much. And then don't attend classes. I wouldn't say that's the main reason.
[00:12:11] Mike: This isn't the topic of our talk, but it just occurred to me as you were saying that how has university paid for?
[00:12:17] Stella: It's paid for it by the state mostly. So I only my tuition, if you wanna call it that I really only pay.
[00:12:26] I think it's like administrative fees, something. So they can like, at least offer us the rooms. But right now I pay 194 a semester Euros. So yeah, [laugh]. It's well, cuz most like most people attend public universities and then there are private schools, but even there, the tuitions are usually like, Around 5,000 to 10,000 a semester.
[00:12:49] So still a lot less than the US.
[00:12:51] Mike: Wow.
[00:12:51] Stella: But yeah, I, University of Monheim is a public school. And so, as I said, I only pay, like I pay under 200 Euros a semester.
[00:13:00] Mike: I don't why I didn't explore that with my kid before.
[00:13:04] Stella: [laugh] Yeah.
[00:13:05] Mike: Are other drugs an issue we're having a huge issue in the United States with opiates in the last few years.
[00:13:11] Stella: It probably happens. I haven't seen it much within my friend group or within my grade at my university. Weed is a very big thing. It is talked about being legalized now, too in Germany. So it's becoming more popular, but I haven't seen any like abuse of it as much, I would say. Other drugs. I haven't really seen anybody use any other drugs before.
[00:13:35] I know it does happen and it happens at other universities more, I believe. I just haven't seen it myself, but yeah.
[00:13:41] Mike: Well, we prescribe for everything. Have you ever had a prescription for a pain killer?
[00:13:46] Stella: Yeah. Yeah, I have. And it's not especially pain meds. I feel like are a lot easier to get in the US. Like here, ibuprofen, at least you can get 200 and 400 milligrams just at your local pharmacy, but starting from 600, you have to get it prescribed.
[00:14:02] 100 milligrams, I don't know if, how it's calculated there, but yeah.
[00:14:07] Mike: Well you're talking ibuprofen. What about things like Oxycontin or Vicodin.
[00:14:11] Stella: I'm yeah, you can get those without having them prescribed.
[00:14:15] Mike: So when I, when I said pain killer, you heard Advil. Pretty much. Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:20] [laugh] Well, there's a difference.
[00:14:22] Stella: Yeah. Well, I know that my mom, cuz she gets really bad migraines and she would always have like my host family, cuz we've been friends with them for a long time. She would have them send her, her migraine pills from the US because she couldn't [laugh] get anything like in here. And they could just get it at the, at their local pharmacy or whatever.
[00:14:39] Mike: Well, and that's how a lot of people here got into trouble initially with opiates is through pain medication. Then it went to heroin after that.
[00:14:49] Stella: Okay. Yeah. No, I've never, never seen anybody do that or abuse, anything like that? [laugh]
[00:14:54] Mike: Do you have your driver's license?
[00:14:57] Stella: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Mike: And what age can you get it there?
[00:15:00] Stella: You can get it at 17, but you have to drive with a parent until you're 18.
[00:15:04] So it's sort of like a permit at 17 and then you get your driver's license at 18.
[00:15:09] Mike: So we can drive earlier, but drink later, you can drink earlier, but drive later.
[00:15:14] Stella: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:16] Mike: What happens if you get caught with alcohol in your system while driving, do you know?
[00:15:21] Stella: You, you lose your license or. Sometime it's, it depends on how much alcohol is in your system, but you lose your license.
[00:15:30] Then again, depending on how much they find you have to attend, like a seminar type thing where they teach you about alcohol usage. And then sometimes you even have to go back into like driving school is what it's called here. Yeah. And like take a few more lessons before you can get your driver's license back and even have to take the test again.
[00:15:48] Mike: Do you know anybody who's had. Who's had a been caught.
[00:15:52] Stella: I think, I only know one person who's had to do that, but he was caught because of speeding [laugh] and so not because of alcohol, but then he had to go through the same process. And so he had people in there that were there because of alcohol abuse.
[00:16:06] Mike: Well, so does that, do people drink and drive? Does your age?
[00:16:10] Stella: It happens. It happens, but like. Yeah. Yeah, it does happen. But I wouldn't say, especially like within my age group, it doesn't happen as frequently. Like we don't like not a lot of people get cars when they get their license or like for their 18th birthday or anything like that. I don't have a car myself.
[00:16:29] So we just get around with public transport and no one really wants to drive and no one does it. So public transportation is a lot better here too. I feel like, and it is. Like I live in a small town and we have public transportation everywhere. So I like, I used to take the train to high school. And even though it's a small town and so there's just not as much of a need for cars, I feel like.
[00:16:52] And so drinking and driving is not that big of an issue because we just don't have cars. [laugh] Like at like my, my age, we don't have cars.
[00:16:59] Mike: So, so what would your daily so do you and your folks, when you, you eat supper, is there alcohol, was there wine or beer? At every meal, is it drink like a food? How does that go?
[00:17:11] Stella: So my dad, I know he used to like, whenever he would get home from work, he would have a beer. Like every night [laugh] it was just normal. Like, I just remember that from, yeah, basically. I don't know. From when I was born pretty much, [laugh] my dad would just, he, he would have a beer. My mom likes to, likes to drink a glass of wine every night.
[00:17:30] Yeah, right now, cause I, my dad started like going on a diet. And so right now he's only having alcohol on the weekends. He'll only eats meat on the weekends, like that kind of thing. [laugh] But it's more for diet purposes. [laugh] But yeah, we do right now, at least cuz I'm home for the summer. And so we have wine every night.
[00:17:49] So I do too. Yeah.
[00:17:51] Mike: I'm laughing because my dad did have a problem with alcohol.
[00:17:55] Stella: Okay.
[00:17:56] Mike: And he would try to lose weight. He would switch from massive quantities of beer to equally massive quantities of hard liquor thinking it was saving him in calories. [laugh]
[00:18:07] Stella: Yep. It's the way to do it. [laugh]
[00:18:09] Mike: There's logic in that, right?
[00:18:11] Stella: Yeah.
[00:18:12] Mike: And so what, what you're, what, what I hear you saying is because it's treated respectfully and because it's modeled for you respectively, it's less of an issue there.
[00:18:20] Stella: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:22] Mike: And you know, that's actually what the studies show. They even show it here that the kids who get into the least amount of trouble with alcohol in the states are those who watch it being used respectfully.
[00:18:33] Stella: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:34] Mike: That, that just makes sense. So I also understand that you're coming back to North America?
[00:18:41] Stella: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:42] Mike: Where?
[00:18:43] Stella: Ottawa, Canada.
[00:18:45] Mike: That's where you're gonna do your, what do you call it an internship or is it a...
[00:18:49] Stella: A semester abroad.
[00:18:50] Mike: A semester abroad?
[00:18:51] Stella: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:53] Mike: At the University of Ottawa.
[00:18:54] Stella: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:57] Mike: [long pause and huff] So you've had two trips by yourself since you were a teenager, just to.
[00:19:04] Stella: Yep.
[00:19:05] Mike: Huh.
[00:19:05] Stella: Yeah. Well, I was cause I, well, as I said, my host family, like the family I stayed with for that whole school year, we've been friends with them. My, it goes back to my grandpa. So my grandpa and my host grandpa, I guess you would call him.
[00:19:18] They exchanged letters when they were in high school. Like their teachers made them do it and they've stayed friends ever since. [laugh] And so they started exchanging their kids for the summers and then their grandkids eventually. So I was in Pewaukee the summer before I came for my, from a year abroad. And it was sort of like a test to see if I liked the US, if I wanted to spend sophomore year there.
[00:19:42] And I was talking to, to them about it, like the family I stayed with. And then on my way back, cuz I flew from Chicago back and I was in there with now my host Dad. And he was like, well, I've been thinking, how about you stay with us for the year? [laugh] And I was like, what? Cause I, I did not expect that. I, I was just gonna go with some organization and they would pick a host family and yeah.
[00:20:03] But eventually I could stay with them then. And so they became my host family and so I stayed with them for a year. But the summer before. So I was in the US for four weeks by myself visiting our friends, and then I was there for 10 months. And yeah, now I'm going back for the semester.
[00:20:20] Mike: Did you, did you travel after you finished your 10 months here? Did you take a month and just travel around the states or go right back?
[00:20:30] Stella: Not really. I went right back. I think it was, I think my visa expired closely after I left too. And so if they catch you with that, it is not fun in the US.
[00:20:39] Mike: Mm-hmm
[00:20:39] Stella: Yeah. If you're not from the US, they really don't want [laugh] you in the country.
[00:20:43] Like even I was talking to cuz actually my host cousin, she was just here. She stayed in Germany for three months. And so we spoke about customs and immigration in the US and they had no idea like how hard it was for us to [laugh] go to immigration at the airport. Yeah, it's really, it's not fun. [laugh] So you really don't wanna stay once your visa has expired.
[00:21:02] So I didn't really travel. Yeah, but I'm planning to.
[00:21:06] Mike: Well, and it's, there are restrictions to get into Canada now, too. Aren't there?
[00:21:09] Stella: It's well, it's definitely not as strict, I paid, I only, because I'm only there for four months. I didn't even need a study permit or a visa, so it's just, I think it's like a travel authorization sort of like ESTA in the us.
[00:21:21] It's called ETA. And that's all I had to do and it cost me seven Canadian dollars. Whereas a US visa for a semester abroad is 200, $500, something in that range. So [laugh].
[00:21:33] Mike: So the visa to go to high school here was more expensive than your university.
[00:21:37] Stella: I think so. Yeah.
[00:21:39] Mike: Do you have to have a COVID test to get into Canada?
[00:21:42] Stella: I think they're reintroducing random testing. I don't think I have to get it beforehand, but they might test me at the airport. That's what I've read so far. We'll see. Yeah.
[00:21:52] Mike: And, and have you been there before, to Canada?
[00:21:55] Stella: No.
[00:21:56] Mike: I, I, I'm interested in, maybe we can chat afterwards and they're so close to us, but I hear that there even has a different drinking culture and using culture.
[00:22:06] Stella: Yeah. Yeah. Cause again, they, they can drink when they're 18, I believe. Yeah, it's more European, [laugh] I feel like, but yeah.
[00:22:18] Mike: And, and you would say that that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing?
[00:22:22] Stella: To start drinking from an early age?
[00:22:23] Mike: Well, like, like, you know, yeah. What do you, now that you're more mature? What do you think?
[00:22:29] Stella: I think the laws here are smarter to be honest. I don't know if 16 is necessary, but 18, I think is definitely smarter than 21. Especially just thinking about college culture in the US. I don't think it's smart to make it illegal before you can start college, because that, that just promotes like illegal drinking and heavy drinking.
[00:22:51] And I feel like as long as it's illegal, people like to test their limits.
[00:22:55] Mike: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:56] Stella: That's what I've witnessed. At least with friends from America. Whereas here it's legal and so you don't have to like go overboard every time you drink, because you can just yeah. Do it whenever. It's not like it's not hard to do or anything.
[00:23:08] And so it's not like once you get the alcohol, then you have to go overboard and you have to have like the time of your life or anything. So I think that's smarter to be honest. And other than that. Again, I don't, I don't know if 16 is necessary to start drinking, but 18 I think is, is the smarter way to go. [laugh]
[00:23:29] Mike: I always said when, when I get asked at presentations, people would say, what do you think? And I said, well, I think it should be 18 or 19.
[00:23:37] Stella: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:37] Mike: With a high school diploma, you know, maybe 47, if you don't have one. Yeah. In other words, you're smart enough to do it. Yeah. I, you know, when I ask people here, how many of you waited till 21 to start drinking?
[00:23:50] It doesn't matter what kind of crowd I'm in.
[00:23:52] Stella: Yeah.
[00:23:52] Mike: There may be one or two hands that go up and that's it. And that's generally from people that just never have drank. So it's a law without being a law. You know?
[00:24:02] Stella: Yeah. Yeah. Which, but still again, I feel like as long as it's illegal, people tend to go more overboard with it.
[00:24:11] That's what I've witnessed at least so and abuse it.
[00:24:15] Mike: Well, Stella, this is, this has been great. I, you know, it's really nice to touch base again and to see, see you. [laugh] And I, I, I always laughed for those of you who were listening. The first time I saw Stella, she was riding with a group of girls in the back of my car as I was taking them to a place and I didn't believe she was from Germany. I thought they were pulling my leg just because she spoke so eloquently as you now have heard.
[00:24:40] Stella: Thank you.
[00:24:41] Mike: Yeah. I'm glad you shared this with us and I know we'll get a chance to talk again soon. Yeah, for sure. All right. For those of you listening, listen in next time, when we explore other issues around substance use, until then stay safe and give your kids some decent messages.
[00:24:58] Stella: [laugh]
[00:24:58] [END AUDIO]
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