Journey Out of the Bottle

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting, the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition, and by a grant from the State of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality Real Talks, reminding you that opioids are powerful drugs and that one pill can kill. As always, I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: My guest today, Jane Musgrave is a survivor, a storyteller, author and a passionate advocate for recovery. Growing up on the outskirts of Brisbane, Australia, she endured a troubled childhood that led her to seek, escape in. Yeah, you guessed it, alcohol. What began as a coping mechanism quickly grew into an all-consuming addiction, shaping decades of her life, leading to a series of difficult choices.

Mike: She details those struggles and her recovery in her terrific book. My Journey Out of the Bottle: Four Rehabs and a Recovery. Welcome Jane.

Jane: Hello, Mike. Thank you for having me.

Mike: I'm so glad you're here. I'm a little envious. You were talking to me before we started. It's summer where you are.

Jane: Yes.

Mike: We're just entering the depths of winter, so I'm envious. Jane, let's start with your first rehab. You because you told the intake person. They always take a history. And you said, yeah, I've been drinking every day for 30 years. Whoa.

Jane: Yeah.

Mike: When did you start?

Mike: That's a long time.

Jane: It is a long time. So I started drinking when I was 16, and by the time I entered my first rehab I was 46.

Mike: Wow.

Jane: Yeah, it had started at 16 and then just crept up. So by the time I ended up in rehab, I was drinking two bottles of wine a night, plus some vodkas, beers, whatever else might be lying around.

Jane: It was insane. Yeah. And I was still functioning like I'm a professional worker. I worked every day. I raised a family and I drank that much.

Mike: Yeah. Normally when I read books like yours, it's full of family members and friends wanting to intervene along the way. But you just jumped into the 30 and yeah, I was working full-time and doing pretty good.

Jane: (laughs) Yes. Yeah. And honestly, when people tell you to or intervene, say you need to go to rehab, it's the worst thing they can do.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: Because I just told them to F right off.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: And it wasn't until I decided I needed to go, that was it.

Mike: Some consequences, I like there's several. I like all your book, but I've been doing this for a long time and I heard a reference that I've never heard before.

Mike: Maybe other people have. But I didn't. The first doctor used a Homer Simpson analogy about a vending machine that helped you. Do you remember it?

Jane: Oh yeah. And look, I still use that to this day. It's one of the best things that stuck with me because it was just so stupid. I was having trouble, so I was wanting to let go of alcohol and let go of my ex-husband, it was a terrible marriage, but still letting go is hard.

Jane: So he said, just think of, the episode with Homer Simpson is, he's got his hand stuck in a vending machine trying to get the beer out and he just can't get it. So they get the fire brigade they get Moe from the bar. They just got everyone, and he's going, I can't get it out. I can't get it out.

Jane: And they said, Moe in the end says, Homer, just let it go. And he let it go, and he got his hand out and I went, oh, that is genius. It's so simple. Just let it go.

Mike: It's so good. It's like you're holding on to that which is making you sick, right?

Jane: Yeah. And it's hurting you. So now when things I get myself into situations like that again, I just say, oh Homer, let it go.

Mike: Yeah. Since your book is titled Four Rehabs and a Recovery, I was almost certain that this wasn't gonna be it, but you were very optimistic after your first rehab and you said, Jane, you said what a lot of people say, I'm never going back.

Jane: Oh, absolutely. And I wrote that in my journal. I only started journaling in rehab and I was so humiliated to be there.

Jane: It was like the end of my life. I was devastated that I would end up in rehab. That only happens in movies, not to me. And I just thought, I will never put myself in this situation again. And I was dead serious. And, that thought in my head kept me going for three years, just. I just did not drink.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: Until one stupid moment came a bit later. (laughs)

Mike: I love that moment. 'cause life is fraught with temptations and triggers and you detail some of them, your son's wedding, right? The deaths of people close to you, work events as you titled in one chapter, romance disasters. But Jane, your first relapse was where?

Jane: At an airport (laughs), an international airport. I was going on holiday with my mom and I hadn't had a drink for three years and, I had the death of my ex-husband just before my son's wedding, and that was totally traumatic. But I didn't want to drink, so I thought, oh my God, I must be cured.

Jane: I thought I'm gonna taste a bit of alcohol. 'Cause they're like here, try this. And I took it and my mom looked at me and she went, Jane, you can't do that! I said, oh, of course I can. I'm fine. But that was the start of something dreadful and yeah, that's all it took was me thinking I'm cured and taking that.

Jane: It was only like, a little tiny sip.

Mike: Yep.

Jane: But that's all it took.

Mike: And then you decided to continue and it's amazing how the brain can con us, right? Because you talked about your next time was that you drank was on a, after what? A helicopter ride on a plateau in the Grand Canyon.

Mike: I deserve a champagne. Or what was a champagne? I don't remember what it was.

Jane: It was champagne, but you know, it was the world working against me because I had ordered sparkling water. 'Cause you had to order the night before a picnic basket so they could pack. So mom and I would chop it into the canyon and I've got the picnic basket out and I've opened it up and there's four bottles of little tiny bottles of champagne.

Jane: I went, oh no. And then I thought, oh, hang on, I'm cured. I had that drink at the airport. I'm fine. I drank it and oh my God, it was the best thing. I hadn't had a drink for three years, a proper drink, and it was heaven. But I hid it. Like I didn't tell mum as far as she knew I was drinking sparkling water, and so I just drank it and I thought yep, I'll be good.

Jane: I'll be good. And then the next time we're in Canada, in the Colombian ice fields and the tour guide came around with some whiskey to celebrate. I went, yeah, I'll be fine. Give me that. And then by the end of that trip, yeah, I was drinking way too much. I drank every second day and within six months I was in full blown relapse.

Jane: Two bottles of wine a night. Didn't take much.

Mike: Nothing like a visit to North America.

Jane: (laughs) Yeah.

Mike: And so now you're off to the races again, right? And your recovery's on the back burner.

Jane: Oh yes. So I'm three, three months. Three, no, three years three months, and about 20 days sober. And I'm in the mindset now.

Jane: I will never drink again. And I know I won't because, I've written a book. I can't, I'm being held accountable. But I don't want to.

Mike: You mix in your addiction to alcohol along with some, fairly interesting relationships. You call them relationship disasters. You referenced your first husband.

Mike: He committed suicide. Did he?

Jane: Yes. Yeah, he did. Nine years ago now. And like our marriage like we were both alcoholics. He was a gambling addict also. So they're the only things we had in common. We were married for 20 years, a beautiful son. I've got grandchildren now, but that marriage was yeah, it was doomed from the start.

Jane: But I'm an empath and I wanted it to work, that's how I was brought up. You get married, that's it, but every, it's, it just didn't, then, a lot of mental abuse. Then the physical abuse came and that's when I just said, nah, I'm out. And it does take a long time to get out and people say, oh, just leave.

Jane: It's not that easy. I've got a son to think of. I had to get myself promoted to a place where I could afford to support him. So it's a long journey and unfortunately for him, he couldn't give up the alcohol or the gambling and eventually did take his own life. That's how bad it gets.

Mike: Even experiencing that, that wasn't the last dysfunctional relationship you had though. You got into another one.

Jane: No, I know. Oh, how stupid am I? So after that I got into a romance scam, so on the internet.

Mike: Oh, that's right.

Jane: And, oh, it's just, you're so desperate to be loved, to be honest, that was my story.

Jane: And I basically paid a man to love me. But then I think well he didn't love me. He was scamming me. It was hard. And I lost $40,000, which was a lot to me. So still in debt from my marriage and that didn't even cause me to drink. I was sober the whole time. I think it would've been excusable if I was drunk, but I wasn't. I was sober and I got myself out of that. Rebuilt again, then got into another bad relationship and yeah. That has ended very badly also. But now I found out why.

Mike: And go ahead. Because...

Jane: Oh it comes back to my childhood.

Jane: And, abandonment issues from troubles I had with my parents. But I knew I had trouble, but it didn't occur to me. That's why I was latching onto people that are bad for me because they showed me attention. And then drinking to put up with their bad behavior. So yeah it all intertwines together.

Jane: It's insane the way that happens that now that I've discovered, that's why I do it. So I just avoid it now. I know what to avoid. So that's a win.

Mike: I was thinking as I was reading it, how many blocked phone calls and messages do you need to do and contact police departments before you go, this is a toxic relationship.

Jane: Oh my gosh. I let it go way too far. Yeah. After the first 11 blocked times within three weeks. It's Jane, what are you doing? I just kept going. Honestly, if you have to block someone once, you're trying to have a relationship, that's one too many.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Jane: So if you're even at that stage. That's not gonna go anywhere good. Don't end up in a situation where I am. This last relationship is still going through the court system here in Australia. It's devastating and it didn't have to happen. So had I, walked away sooner, things would be different.

Jane: I don't know. But you can't predict that. So it's tough.

Mike: And the interesting part to me, or one of them was. Whoever you met, as embarrassing as that is, right? Because I'm sure it was embarrassing, when you would meet somebody in a rehab or the police department or the court system, they were nonplus by it.

Mike: They're like, oh yeah, this happens all the time.

Jane: Oh, yes!

Mike: People take people back who are bad for them all the time, and you begin to think it's normal.

Jane: Oh, it is. 'Cause yeah, when I told the police officer yeah, I've I do have a protection order on this man, but I took him back and, I was so embarrassed and he just said, oh, that happens all the time.

Jane: More than you know.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: And I'm just like, what? So that made me feel good and bad. 'Cause I thought I'm not the only stupid person. (laughs) So it happens more. But, I've been able to cope with that. But a lot of people don't and they're still turning to alcohol.

Mike: I wanna go back to your mom for a minute if that's okay.

Jane: Sure.

Mike: When I was reading it, it's almost like you had two moms, right? If that's all right to say. The one who took off and gave you the abandonment issues and the one who, for the bulk of your adult life, has been pretty supportive of your recovery.

Jane: Yeah, she has been my rock. Honestly, without her I don't think I'd be where I am.

Jane: She's never given up on me. She's been stern with me. She's given me the tough laugh, even though I didn't want it. I'll admit she was the first one to say, Jane, you need to go to rehab. And she was the one I told to F off. (laughs) So she planted that seed. And it wasn't until years later that I did end up in that rehab.

Jane: But even though through my childhood and that I loved her dearly, and when she did come back and, we formed a relationship again we are more like best friends. And that's what I call in my book. I call her my trusty travel companion.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: Is 'cause we get on so well.

Jane: When we do travel, people will say, oh, 'cause we've both got the same last name, Musgrave. I took on my stepfather's last name when I got divorced and I go, oh, your sisters? Oh yes we are! (laughs)

Mike: (laughs) Of course she does.

Jane: Yeah, she's, through my whole marriage, I was ringing her every day in tears pretty much.

Jane: So she just has been there for me and I'm so grateful that she's still with us. And like she's in Tasmania where it's actually snowing. It's Christmas day and it is snowing in Australia. How bizarre is that? Not near me, but she's about a three hour flight away.

Mike: Wow. It's not snowing here and I'm happy about that. Cross my fingers.

Mike: When you went back to the second rehab, the same place you went to the first one, right?

Jane: Yes, I did because it worked for me.

Mike: Yeah. And I give people a ton of credit, Jane, who go back to rehab because again, there's that, I'll never come back. Oh, here I am.

Mike: That's embarrassing too, but you get over it and the people who are there expect that relapse is part of the disease.

Jane: Oh, yes, 'cause it was six years. And I didn't expect the same people to be there, but there were, the same teachers, the same psychologists, the same doctors, and they remembered me and that was a surprise.

Jane: And so it was easier to slot back in. It's oh, okay. I'm not as embarrassed because they've seen me before and then it was during COVID, this one, so we didn't get to socialize a lot, but most of the people there had been there so many times before, and that's when I realized, oh, okay.

Jane: I am not special. This is so common. And some of them had only been there three months ago and I thought six years was a pretty good effort. And then, oh no, I was here three months ago and I'm like oh my God. Then that's when I started losing hope because there were so many relapses.

Jane: And it was the same program, the same teachers. Everyone was really blase about it. So I walked outta there. Just I walked out of there and I went to the bottle shop and I bought a bottle of champagne and I drank it. That's how much I lost hope in rehab. Yeah. So that didn't work.

Jane: Alright look, it worked for a few months. I thought, no, I can't do this again and. Yeah, life happens. And, my stupid brain just... I got really tired and I thought if I drink again, I'll get my energy back. And I did. So within three months I was full on drinking again.

Mike: And your rehabs, if I get this right, in Australia, your rehabs were two weeks, right?

Mike: The first two?

Jane: Yes. They varied. That's the shortest one.

Mike: And then your third rehab you paid out of pocket for.

Jane: Gosh yeah. So the first two were covered by my private health insurance.

Mike: We can all pause there in the United States and go what? So go ahead.

Jane: (laughs) Okay. Private health insurance (laughs) anyway, but I do pay a premium.

Jane: So the third one, so I thought, okay, the first two didn't work. What if I change it up a bit and go to an actual retreat, a mental health and alcohol retreat, because I knew I had problems, so private health did not cover it. I found a couple, somewhere a hundred thousand dollars for a four week program, and I thought, I can't, I cannot afford that.

Jane: But I did find one, it was around a $30,000 mark and I could take the money out of my superannuation, which I believe is your 401k, so I could draw that out now. And then I had to pay tax on that and it ended up costing me 45,000. So I thought, okay, this is costing me a bucket load of money. It's gotta work.

Jane: Surely. And it was a retreat, as a private chef, there's a private trainer, you've got your own room, it's in the hinterland in the mountains, and, it's, it sounded glorious, but I knew I'd have to put in the hard yards as well. So it was 80 hours of therapy. So I went there, it was great, but it wasn't as alcohol focused as I expected. So I went in there wanting to come out cured of alcoholism, but I came out finding my why I drank. But I still drank after it. Yeah. So it wasn't good.

Mike: You had a psychologist upon discharge. Go ahead, finish that. Because I had to reread that several times.

Jane: I know. So she was my assigned psychologist and when our first session, she said to me, so are you here to, for total abstination or you just wanna cut down? And I went, hang on a minute, I'm in a, this is a rehab, I'm an alcoholic. I need to stop drinking. And you're asking me if I just wanna cut down. Oh, just put the brakes on it and we had words and then we got on the same page or so I thought.

Jane: So we had a few more sessions and all of that, and it was four weeks later getting ready for discharge. Oh, you're doing so well, Jane. She goes you'll even be, so this is October, last day of October. You'll even be able to have a drink of champagne on Christmas Day. And I just looked at her and I'm like, are you freaking serious?

Jane: I thought, why would you say that? But she was serious. She goes, yeah, you're doing great. Oh my God. That was her last day there too.

Mike: Oh great. That's, take the 45,000 right.

Jane: I know, (laughs) but I was horrified. I thought, why would you do that? But as our mind works, the seed was planted.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: And on Christmas day, so I was living in the city here, and my flatmate was flying over to Iran to go visit his family. And I dropped him at the airport. And the day prior, I'd bought a bottle of champagne. Put it in the fridge, and I thought, it's Christmas day, I'm gonna have a drink. Only one glass.

Jane: That's never gonna happen, is it? I drank the bottle. And I was disgusted. I was ashamed. And I didn't even like the taste, but because she planted it in my head, oh, you can have a drink. I did. And yeah it's, then the same old story. I didn't have a drink for a couple more months, but then I got into another bad relationship.

Jane: So the alcohol came straight back out.

Mike: Yeah. My coping mechanism.

Jane: Oh, absolutely. And it's yeah, it just it doesn't make you forget it, honestly. It makes you, it makes it worse. But it's the only thing I knew how to do. It's no, I'll have a drink and everything will be better, but it was never gonna work.

Jane: And then. Hence I ended up in the fourth rehab.

Mike: And that one, because you're a veteran, right? You're a veteran of the Australian Royal Air Force. Am I getting that right?

Jane: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: You got into a different program that was a little longer also, four weeks, I think, right? Was it four weeks?

Jane: Yes. Yeah, it was four weeks.

Mike: More structured. What I found interesting was like a lot of people, Jane, your first couple of rehabs, you were like, oh, this AA stuff, nah, I don't need that God stuff, or whatever. But you took to it. A little differently in your fourth rehab.

Jane: I did, I was looked desperate by then.

Jane: Four rehabs. I was back to, well by this stage 'cause as you relapse, you drink more and more. So I was just three bottles of wine a night.

Mike: Oh my goodness.

Jane: And working, yeah. And working and trying to function. And it was just getting too hard. And it, for the first time. It was showing at work that I was having a problem.

Jane: Like I was tired, I wasn't focused. And it was getting noticed. So I thought, if I don't pick my act up, I'm gonna lose my job. I support myself, so I lose my job, I lose everything. So I thought I've gotta get under this. So I started ringing around for some rehabs. I thought if I'll just detox for a couple of days and I'll be fine.

Jane: But no, it doesn't work like this. So I got onto this one that the Department of Veteran Affairs recommend, and they said, oh yeah, all of this, and. It sounded really good. She said, oh, by the way, we're Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous based. And I went, oh, hang on a minute. No. And she said, you have to go to a meeting every day.

Jane: I said, no, I can't do that. And I hung up. 'cause I was just. I was so against it. And then, something happened at work, it was just like my boss was noticing things. He's Jane, what's going on? You need help. And I went, oh, I do. So I rang that rehab back and I said, look, I'm desperate. I need your help.

Jane: And I explained to her how I felt about AA. She said, look, it's not religious. It's what you want it to be. I said, oh, so I don't have to believe in God. She said, no, of course you don't. She said, you believe whatever you wanna believe. So I went, oh, so I find the ocean calming. So I said, so I could make my belief the ocean.

Jane: She said, yep. I went, book me in. Within four days I was in that rehab and I went in with the mindset of if I don't succeed, I'm going to die. So it was a game changer on two parts. The structure, it was so strict. It was like being in jail, which was what I needed, and my mindset of if I fail this, I'm gone.

Jane: So it was, it worked.

Mike: Well, and then I was amazed. You have some incredibly supportive people in your life from your boss to your son, to your mom, to those wonderful people you met at the AA meetings.

Jane: Oh yes. That's what I loved about the AA and the NA's. We're all the same.

Jane: No one in that room is any better or worse. It's not a competition. It's yeah I'm lost, so many times I sat there in tears. And then so many times I was just so excited and elated and everyone sitting there nodding, I'm going, oh, these people understand me. And that was a real a groundbreaker for me that I could go in there and say anything that was in my head and everyone would nod and then I understood.

Jane: Later they're just nodding because they're not listening. They are listening, but they're just saying, yeah, been there. (laughs)

Mike: Yeah, the old there by the grace of God.

Jane: Absolutely. I've formed some really good friendships. 'Cause what they recommend is you do 90 meetings in 90 days.

Jane: So I was in the rehab for 30 days. So I kept going to meetings after I got out of the rehab. Just to keep me focused and on track. So it's exhausting, but I did it and yeah. Made some great friends. I don't go anymore 'cause I found them too exhausting in the end. But like I said, the friendships I've formed, we're still in contact weekly.

Mike: Terrific.

Jane: So it was a great starting point for me. And a lot of people they still go daily, so everyone's different how they treat their recovery. I know how to look after myself so I don't go because they do drain me. 'Cause I just get so excited and, it, it talk and yeah.

Jane: And sometimes hearing a lot of bad things isn't good for you either, so you work it out yourself.

Mike: The yin and yang about you, throughout the book there's a... And you mentioned the ocean, right? Being so calming. And then in the next chapter you talk about, yeah, I also raced my BMW.

Jane: Yeah. (laughs)

Mike: So you go from karma sitting cross-legged by the ocean to racing up a mountain with your BMW, a little surf and turf, right?

Jane: Absolutely. That has been a godsend that, so I was 56 and I became a race car driver.

Mike: And a good one!

Jane: Oh yeah, who knew? Like my dad was involved in Speedway and everything and he was always taking me for drives and he loved driving and I love driving as well.

Jane: Just turns out I was a natural at it. I bought the BMW, joined a club, got asked to join the race team 'cause I could see I drove like a maniac. And yeah, so raced a, some of the best courses in Australia, like hitting 200 down the back straight. This is on my first time ever. And then, the signs are coming up 100 meters to go, 50 meters.

Jane: Oh, I better brake now. Better brake. But it's that adrenaline. (laughs) That rush and I thought, who needs alcohol when I've got this? It was replacing one addiction with another. But this was a good one. My sister-in-law watched me race once, down in Tasmania, and she goes, Jane, what if you crash?

Jane: And I went, I die. And she went what? And I said, that's it because there's no safety. It's our car.

Mike: Yeah.

Jane: You got a helmet on. I got a helmet and a fire extinguisher in the car in case we catch on fire. That's it. No roll cages, nothing. And I think that's what just draws me to it is that you're taking your own life into your hands.

Jane: There's, none of these rescue crew. (laughs) It's over. So that adrenaline just excites me. And then I'll go to the ocean and calm myself down.

Mike: I like that because to find things that occupy both of you, to take the place of the adrenaline and then to take the things to calm you down.

Mike: 'Cause you used alcohol for both, right?

Jane: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And another good thing about the car racing is you can't drink and drive.

Mike: You're not supposed to.

Jane: Not supposed to. That's right. That's a no brainer. Yeah, great. Go and kill yourself, but don't hurt anyone else, so you cannot have alcohol in your system.

Jane: So that, that's a really good incentive. To stay off is Jane, if you had a drink, you can't race your car ever again. That's the rules I would put on myself. Yeah. There's no way I was gonna stop racing. I have for a moment. (laughs)

Mike: Yeah. Your bestie said, and I'm gonna read this so I can get it right.

Mike: She told you people are drawn to you, Jane, they listen to you. Is your book a way of paying that forward?

Jane: Absolutely.

Mike: To reach out.

Jane: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And I thought, look, the best way, 'cause I want to help people, this is my life's purpose. And that's what I found in Tasmania. 'Cause I was still so lost.

Jane: I'm gonna be 60 in two months time and I'm thinking. What am I doing? So I found in Tasmania, okay, Jane, you are sober. You need to help people get what you've got the easy way. 'Cause it took me eight years before I finally got sober and I thought, God, I wish I'd known so many things that I've had to learn along the way and it wouldn't have taken me so long.

Jane: So I thought. My bestie said that, now I've known her since primary school, so we've known each other for 50 years. And she just, when she said that to me, I thought, you know what, you're right. Because we leave rehab and everyone's, Jane, I wanna come to your place, Jane, I wanna come and live with you, and I'm going, but you can ring me please. (laughs)

Jane: I thought, hang on a minute, people respect me. They want to hear what I've got to say. So I thought, oh, there's something in this. This is how I can help. It was all put together. It's okay, I need to write a book, but how, what do I write? What? And I thought why not just tell the truth?

Jane: There's the things in the book I've never told anyone. My mom didn't know. She's read it. She's gone. Oh my God, Jane, I didn't know it was that bad. I said, of course you didn't. I wasn't gonna tell you. And, there's things, and there's a lot of things that I still haven't written I can write that are worse than that. This is not bad. It's a tragic but inspiring story I call it. But it was my way of showing people. Hey, you are not the only one. You are not alone. And I knew people would relate to this, so I released the book in October. I've probably sold 300 copies. And would you believe 80% of them are in the States?

Mike: I believe that.

Jane: Yeah it's amazing and I love that, that I'm helping people globally. It's incredible. But I know they'll relate to the book, whether it's the alcohol, the domestic violence.

Mike: Yes.

Jane: The mental health, like I am, I suffer depression and I'm medicated. T hat's fortunate.

Jane: So if you think you are, get help, it's not embarra. Well, I used to be embarrassed to ask for help. Now I'm not. So I wanna show the people. Don't be embarrassed. Ask for help, and take the stigma away from alcoholism. It's an addiction. It's a horrible drug and it's so freely available and that's not gonna change.

Jane: But you need to be aware. That if you are in trouble, there's a way out. So that's my way of helping people.

Mike: I love it. I hope we can help with that. We have a lot of therapists who listen to this podcast as well, and I could back when I was doing that, I could have easily seen just giving your book out to people, because as you said, there's so much with the alcohol.

Mike: The good and bad messages you got in the therapy sessions, right? The domestic violence, the tie into mental health, the family of origin issues, there's a lot in there. And I think shame keeps a lot of people from asking for help, and you overcame that as well.

Jane: Oh, yes. Yeah. And like any question someone will ask me, I won't dodge it.

Jane: I'll tell you the truth. Even if I'm ashamed. Oh gosh. When I was, on my three year bender, there's a chapter called where I just went out and drank stupidly for three years. I was in my fifties, and I was clubbing every night. And, but I got to stage where I was catching the bus home.

Jane: I'd fall out of the bus, I'd ripped my arms open, ripped my knees open, and I didn't care. So it just got to that stage where I was losing all my self-esteem. Yeah. And that's. That's just something alcohol does, and I'm not ashamed to talk about that now. I used to be, I wouldn't tell anyone, oh, yeah, I fell outta the bus, says, oh no, I tripped over.

Jane: I was walking the dog. No, I was drunk. I fell outta the bus. (laughs) So you gotta, you've got to get so comfortable with yourself that you can say these things and God it's freeing. I feel so free. Never felt this free in my life.

Mike: I love it. Thank you for your book. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Mike: I'd encourage all of you listening and watching to go out and get it. We have links, as you all know to Amazon to your book, and to Jane's stuff. Anytime we can talk to you, Jane, you just let us know. It's great. For those of you listening, while we end this we hope you find hope, insight, courage, support wherever you are.

Mike: Thanks for listening and as always, be safe and as Jane would probably say, wear a helmet.

Jane: (laughs) Yes.