Life By Design, Not By Default

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. I'm Mike McGowan, and this is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, a series brought to you by Westwords Consulting, the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition, and by a generous grant from the State of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality: Real Talks, reminding you that opioids are powerful drugs, and that one pill can kill.

Mike: We're gonna have a conversation today about holistic recovery. Jeanne Foot is the founder and CEO of The Recovery Concierge, a premier service for mental health, addiction recovery, trauma healing, and peak performance. In addition to her own lived experience, she holds credentials as an international certified alcohol and drug counselor.

Mike: She is trained in hypnotherapy, neuro-linguistic programming, and somatic work. Using evidence-based therapeutic models, she works with her clients to create a recovery path that works for their lifestyle. Jeanne is also the host of an absolutely terrific podcast, and I'm not just saying that, you gotta listen, called Naturally High.

Mike: As always, we'll put a link to all of her connections on our blurb.

Mike: Welcome, Jeanne. How are you?

Jeanne: And very well, thank you for that lovely introduction, Mike.

Mike: Well, I have enjoyed it, and I know I get into it when we're gonna talk, but I always like to start, when I start these, with the recovery story. Share as much as you care to.

Jeanne: Absolutely. Thank you. So I come from three generations of mental health mental illness, I should say, not mental health, and we're working on the three generations forward going with mental health.

Mike: Yeah. (laughs)

Jeanne: But anyway, no, three generations of mental illness, and I found recovery in recovery basically in 1993, which was pre-trauma.

Jeanne: Nobody even understood what trauma was back then. I was using substances as a coping mechanism, and even though my life looked picture perfect on the outside, I had a young family, I had a husband, I had a career, I really internally was struggling terribly, and nobody knew it. And so I was in recovery for about seven years, and I hit a critical juncture, and it was like the fork-in-the-road moment where you either go one way or you go the other.

Jeanne: And for me, I just knew that there was something really wrong in terms of I was doing everything I was supposed to do, but I really felt so unwell. I felt suicidal. I wasn't medicated. I didn't have a diagnosis. I had no support other than 12 steps aftercare. And I thought, "If this is what recovery is, I don't want any part of it."

Mike: (laughs) God of heard that.

Jeanne: And so it was one of those pivotal moments where... And I was seven years in, so I had been like in... Everybody talks about the miracles, they come in, the promises, sorry, the promises. And I thought, "Damn it, I want that." Why wouldn't you, right? But you know what? I was like, "God's timeline, not my timeline."

Jeanne: And I kept trying to, settle myself down, but really I was very unwell. And that sent me on a quest to figure out what does recovery really look like? And so I dove into everything self-development, personal development, growth, I sort of ignored the resistance to become a recovery coach or a therapist or anything because everybody does that, and that was so cliché, and I already was in, had a business, a family business.

Jeanne: And so I've literally stumbled on Kundalini yoga. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

Mike: Sure,  can't do it,  but yeah, I'm familiar with it.

Jeanne: But anyway, kundalini yoga was was like my magic silver elixir. I went into a class, came out what I thought would be an hour later, and four hours later I came out of there and I was as high as a kite.

Jeanne: Which, naturally- ... which is where naturally high comes from. I didn't know that was possible until that moment. I had never ever felt so free and so alive and so good in my own skin, naturally high, that I thought, "Okay, I need more of this." And that's where, that was the catalyst for the route that I took.

Mike: I think it's funny. I think I emailed you this, that your terrific podcast on Apple Podcast, in the evals, it rates your podcast as clean, which I thought, I just laughed. I thought how ironic for a podcast named Naturally High to be rated as clean. But, you talk about emotional sobriety, not abstinence, is the metric for recovery.

Jeanne: What do you mean by that? Absolutely. I think we've all seen them, where you see these people who are abstinent or maybe have years and years, I would say particularly men, although this is not really men, because men are very happy in 12-step. I'm not saying women can't be or are not, but we all have different needs based on our traditional roles.

Jeanne: So what I mean by that is that you can have a great abstinence record, but you could be really unwell.

Jeanne: Meaning you have no emotional resilience, you have no skills in how to problem solve, any communication, conflict resolution, none of those. So for me, I felt like we're really discounting level of functioning, because I had a huge story of relapse where I would get sober for four years, seven years, six years, two and a half years.

Jeanne: So it's not like I was using every day, but something was tripping me up in my recovery that wasn't being looked after. And I have a long history of PTSD from trauma as a young child ... that was repeated over and over again, which meant that I needed something a little bit more than just what was offered to me.

Jeanne: And in those days, nobody knew what to do with trauma. Now it's a buzzword, and everybody and their neighbor is an expert in it, right? But then in those days nobody really understood it, not even in the treatment center. When I was 33 years old back in '93, I disclosed fully what my history was, and they wanted to talk about the substance.

Jeanne: So to me, I thought it discounts our level of functioning because we've all heard of the term an angry drunk, right? So we have to be able to navigate our daily lives. And especially if we're human, the human journey is really messy.

Mike: Yeah.

Jeanne: And it's problematic, and it's not easy, and we keep thinking that it's gonna be easier, so we fall back into patterns.

Jeanne: And I think as long as we learn for every setback and reoccurrence, it makes us stronger, it makes us smarter, it makes us able to be more resilient, and then move on to what I hope we all do, which is flourish. It's not just about getting to resilience. We wanna flourish.

Mike: And being clean simply allows you the opportunity to develop those skill sets and insights.

Jeanne: Absolutely, 'cause you can't even think your way out of anything if you're not clean.

Mike: Right. I do wanna ask you though, 'cause it applied to my mom I think. When you said you come from three generations of mental, how much of that generational stuff was misdiagnosed or undiagnosed and only looking back you go, "Oh, I see."

Mike: 'Cause I can see what my mom was going through, although she was never diagnosed with depression, and I'm certain that she had it

Jeanne: So I see it in our family line in different, on my mom's side in particular. So my mom did suffer from depression. She also had trauma. She had a history of traumatic experiences.

Jeanne: She was raised by a single mom who was very vacant, right? No money, poverty. So there was a lot of that. But I think I'm more of an environmental casualty, to be honest with you. I think if my, would've been placed in a different home, I may have been a different person.

Mike: Yep.

Jeanne: However, that was the home I got. It was my teaching, my life curriculum, as I used to say. One of my children out of three, one in particular, has struggled terribly. He's thriving now because fortunately I chose to do something different about it. Because in my generation it was like, "Children should be seen and not heard."

Jeanne: Nobody did anything about anything. They didn't know what to do. They didn't want to admit anything, and if they did, they were probably out of their element in what to do. And it was very taboo back then to have someone who was mentally ill. It was not seen as part of being human, which it is really today.

Mike: That's outstanding. And speaking of looking back and looking forward, on the final installment you do a a little miniseries on your podcast called, let me get it right, Recovery Return on Investment, and I love the comment you make. Here's the quote, "So many people want to change, but try to create it while staring into the rear view mirror."

Mike: I love that quote. What do you mean by that?

Jeanne: Oh my God. It's so hard for any of us to be in the present moment, right? Like right here, right now with you and I, right? Instead of not thinking about all the things I have to do. So either we're future tripping looking at what's ahead or where we wanna aspire to be, or we're driving in the rear view mirror thinking about everything that's really got us to where we are and why we can't move forward.

Jeanne: So if we're looking in the rear view mirror, we're not gonna do anything really extraordinary, I think, personally.

Mike: No.

Jeanne: We're just gonna remain then that stuck kind of cycle, a few steps forward, more back, and so on. So I think, if we can get into the present moment, have more compassion for ourselves, for our process, recognize that the human journey is a really messy journey, and embrace all of our quirkiness, and have some compassion and learn along the way, we'd be so much nicer and kinder to ourselves, and be so much better off.

Jeanne: We need to start to treat ourselves like we treat our friends and family. That could be a... But let's- ... say friends, not our family. The positive- But you know what I mean by that, right?

Mike: Yeah, the positive ones.

Jeanne: Yeah, like you would never berate someone who's close to you and say, "My God, you just didn't get that right. What's the matter with you?" But we do that to ourselves.

Mike: We sabotage our own success all the time. Our own growth all the time.

Jeanne: Absolutely.

Mike: Where's that come from?

Jeanne: I think it comes from our subconscious programming. When we, between zero and seven, we're blueprints, right? We're absolute blueprints for what we hear.

Jeanne: It not only comes from our caregivers, it comes from our culture. It can may be religious indoctrination, like just environmental. And so we learn at a very young age is, who do I need to be loved, to keep my world safe and predictable? And so what happens is we adapt, and that's where you get those, archetypes like, the hero, the caretaker, the people pleaser, all the different roles. And we learn very quickly that if we wanna keep our world more predictable, if we have volatile people around us, we're gonna adapt and play certain roles, and that's what we do. So it comes from a variety of different places, but we live out these, this blueprinting as if it's our truth, our gospel truth.

Jeanne: It's not. It's just programming. And if we start to believe it, it actually dictates the quality of our life and how our life unfolds. But if we learn to be more discerning at some stage and go, "Okay, where did I get that? I sound like my mother," like I'm repeating these things, you know what I mean?

Jeanne: "Where did I get this from?" And question it and become more curious, we can create a new narrative, and that is the work.

Mike: That is the work.

Jeanne: That is the work.

Mike: Okay, so then what part does fear, shame, guilt play in keeping us stuck? And I think you would add, correct me if I'm wrong, perfectionism into that.

Jeanne: Oh my gosh, yep. So that's still very tough for me, perfectionism. I think that was one of the last. So fear is normal. It's a normal... Like we repel from anything that's uncomfortable. We're built to feel comfortable, and when it's not, we'll repel from it. That's normal. Shame is a hard one, and I think the best way to neutralize shame is compassion. And we can offer compassion to the people that we love, our little children, but we can't offer it to ourselves as grown adults. It's much harder. And so it's a process. It's really a learning process, and I've got a lot better at that. Like honestly, Mike, I could not look at myself in the mirror as a young woman.

Jeanne: I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. I hated myself so much. I had so much shame.

Mike: From?

Jeanne: So for me to look up in the mirror and just look at my reflection was painful. So there's parts of me that I like and I love today, not all of it, but I have a really overly critical eye and it's taken me a long time to rework that programming.

Mike: Where did the shame come from, Jeanne?

Jeanne: I was sexually abused as a young child repeatedly from the ages of seven to 12.

Mike: So trauma again.

Jeanne: Yeah, so trauma for me. But it can come from, it could be come from living in poverty. And thinking that you could never escape that or be anything different.

Jeanne: It can come from many different places. Being told that you're stupid, and that you'll never amount to anything. It can come from many different ways, right?

Mike: Yeah. At what point did you feel that shame turn and that you could look in the mirror and realize you were different than that?

Jeanne: So I think the recovery journey was the beginning of that, because one of the things I learned very quickly in the rooms so I'm going back to more of a traditional 12-step recovery, was that I need to be relentless about my recovery as I would be about my addiction. So that means I would go to any lengths to score drugs, so why wouldn't I do that to, for my recovery?

Jeanne: I would drive in a snowstorm to pick up, so I have to drive in a snowstorm to go to a meeting, right? So I learned that. But I think it was, like, small acts of kindness. I think it was just random acts of kindness, and it's something I still enjoy to this very day, just being a decent person, right?

Jeanne: And I lost my way. I probably was always a decent person, I just had lost my way, 'cause I didn't have any other tools. So I think that when we do small, generous, selfless acts, I think we build... It's like putting a grain of sand in the bucket. One more grain at a time, and eventually the bucket starts to fill up.

Mike: You and I do this. People poo-poo that all the time. Or I... Maybe that's a bad way to put it, but they just minimize it, but it's how do you think the fence got built? How do you think the people who put my roof on in January did their job? They did it one shingle at a time, right?

Jeanne: It's interesting you say that because one of the determinants of success of any goal is consistent effort. It's not the big, grandiose things, which we people like we're probably big or go home, right? That's the kind of people we're probably talking to mostly in the audience. If you've ever suffered with any mental illness or addiction, you're probably more extreme.

Jeanne: It's an all or nothing thinking. But there is a middle ground, and the middle ground is if you can't work out, do a full workout, can you get five minutes in?

Mike: Yes.

Jeanne: Or if you can't have three good meals a day, can you get one good meal in? There's nothing wrong with making incremental small changes because it keeps you in the game.

Jeanne: You don't abolish it, right?

Mike: Yeah. If I can't do yoga, I can maybe stretch a little bit.

Jeanne: Correct, right? It's what can we do? So they call those floors and ceilings. And I love the floor concept because I used to be the person, "Ah, if I can't do it the way I wanna do it, then..." Which is where the perfectionism comes in, right?

Jeanne: Yep. If it doesn't look a certain way, I'm out, right?

Mike: If I don't have the time to complete the entire project, I won't even start it. Yeah. So mindset, attitude, and initiative count for a lot then.

Jeanne: Absolutely. But here's the biggest lever, or the biggest leverage, is that we have so much influence over it, and people think it's like this "This is the way I am."

Jeanne: There's no such thing as this is the way I am. This is the way you wanna be, is a choice. But we actually can, and this is where epigenetics comes in, we can change our health with our nutrition. We can change our mindset with our nutrition. We can change with movement. We can change with our mindset and how we think and the quality of our thoughts and whether or not we believe them to be true.

Jeanne: If I'd have known that 25 years ago, the road would've been a lot easier. I didn't learn that till probably the last 15 years.

Mike: So you talked about a little bit before, but I really like the episode that you do on attachment and emotional safety which is, I think is... That's a whole nother podcast or four, right?

Mike: But shouldn't, this is a loaded question, shouldn't our closest relationships be the easiest? But they're oftentimes the hardest, and not just from the people that are on the unhealthiest with us, but all of the close relationships sometimes seem hard.

Jeanne: Ask anyone who loses a parent, whether they're five or 50, right?

Jeanne: Yeah. It's complicated, right? Yeah. Like the emotion- the closer we are. Because I think when we are in relationship with people, there is an aspect that is complicated, especially the closer the relationship. There's disappointment, I think, on both sides. And disappointment can be healthy, but it's perceived as really as something so awful, and so that gets embedded into all of it as well.

Jeanne: But attachment, there's healthy attachment and there's dysfunctional attachment. We're lucky to have healthy attachment if we get it. But all of this can have a reparative experience. So even if you didn't come, and if you've had two caregivers, they say caregivers 'cause not everybody had both parents.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Jeanne: But let's say you had two caregivers and one had healthy attachment and one had dysfunctional or dysregulated attachment. As long as you have one healthy attached parent or caregiver, you can do really well. And if you didn't, guess what? You can model and you can learn healthy attachment in relationships.

Jeanne: But I think what happens with attachment, which is really interesting, the very thing that kept us safe, which is I was talking about those roles that we play or who do I need to be loved, is the demise in our adult relationships. So if I start to be a overbearing people pleaser because I feel useful, I feel loved, I know that I'm needed, then guess what?

Jeanne: That works really well up until a point, and then I'm resentful, I'm angry, and I'm not getting my needs met, and so that's not gonna work well in an adult relationship. It will work as a young child, for sure.

Mike: And in an adult relationship, who are you then attracting?

Jeanne: Absolutely. Someone who really needs that kind of relationship, which is a double-edged sword, right? (laughs)

Jeanne: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And then you see that over and over again as those pattern's repeated.

Jeanne: Yeah, I think so. Absolutely.

Mike: So fears and inadequacies, sometimes people project those onto other people, right?

Jeanne: Oh my goodness. We project our unconscious unfinished business onto others, for sure.

Jeanne: We don't even know we're doing it, most of us. Yeah. It's interesting. Definitely.

Mike: Yeah. I love the... When I was doing family therapy a lot, the whole you are just like blank. And it was somebody that they had a bad relationship with, and that would set off teenagers like you wouldn't believe, right?

Jeanne: Their back goes up quickly.

Mike: Oh, and justifiably so because that diminishes who you are as a real person. Okay, since you're talking about relationships, I think I read, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you've been married a long time?

Jeanne: Definitely. Yeah.

Mike: Okay.

Jeanne: 45 years.

Mike: Okay. That is a... Okay. (laughs)

Jeanne: It is a long time.

Jeanne: It's a miracle we're still together, but yeah, we love each other. We're still going.

Mike: Yeah. There you go. Talk about the miracle. I'm sure there's a lot of ups and downs, but what are the keys to that then? Because perfectionism, if you battle that, that can't be a key to a 45-year relationship because otherwise one person would have said, "You're not perfect enough for me."

Jeanne: No. So I think looking back now, because we're in a sweet spot, and it has been bumpy, and I believe timelines can be different for couples for sure. So I came into recovery in '93. My husband supported my recovery but had no idea what I was talking about. I could be speaking Greek for all he cared. He had no idea what it meant because he wasn't going there with his business, with his trauma.

Jeanne: So he, my husband really didn't get into his own self spiritual healing until, probably he's 69 now, so probably in the last 10 years. So a long time. So there was a lot of bumpiness and, but he was advocating it was good enough for our children when they needed help. So I was okay with that, and I was trying to get him to...

Jeanne: I was pushing him during those years when I was in earlier recovery. The kids were having some sort of therapeutic intervention, and I wanted him to be on board with me, and I thought he needed to look exactly like me for this to work. Okay? Not we've nearly duked it out a million times whether we're gonna be together or not together, and that's public knowledge by anyone, so I don't mind saying that.

Jeanne: But what happened, I think what really shifted, we met a therapist who really talked about who's showing up in the marriage, and basically there were two children in the marriage. That's really what the reality was. There were two young people with their own wounds and their own history and their own trauma in the marriage.

Jeanne: And so some of us were a little bit more evolved, and some of us were just starting. And the reality is we think relationships is 50/50. We have to take 100% responsibility for our part in the relationship, for what we bring into the relationship, and that doesn't really happen. People think it's like a joint effort, which it is.

Jeanne: I think also another part of this is thinking your spouse needs to be like you. Just because I'm on a journey, he's never gonna be me any more than I'm gonna be him. He's a tech whiz, by the way. (laughs) Yeah. So I'm not gonna be that person. He's not gonna be me. But that's okay because we can meet somewhere along the line.

Jeanne: He doesn't have to be everything to me. I don't have to be everything to him. So I think those are two core tenets. And I think that really his process is his process, and it doesn't need to look like mine and vice versa. So we have to be patient with that. That's hard to get your head around sometimes.

Jeanne: Especially if you really love someone because we get so hung up on what we think it needs to look like that we lose perspective in the process of it all. So what's really important? Is it really important that we stay together and we can work this out and still get our needs met? Absolutely. Our needs are still allowed to be met as long as they're healthy But we, it doesn't mean we have to self-sacrifice or compromise everything to do so.

Mike: No, but going back to what you said before and building on the skill thing, you have to know what your needs are first, right?

Mike: And then you have to ask for them sometimes 'cause you can't magically think that the other person's in your head knowing what you need

Jeanne: Absolutely. And I think that's the biggest thing is that we go into solution mode when our, loved ones are struggling. Like my, I think men are typically more rescuers, that's what they do.

Jeanne: "Okay, how can I fix this?" Sometimes we just need to be heard. Sometimes we need to be seen and validated for what we're experienced and nothing more than that. And yet they think it's like, "Okay we got a problem here. Let's fix it," right? That's not always... Eventually we'll get to that. But I think the missing component that I really wanna emphasize when we're struggling in relationships is that we want to be able to express what is true and alive for us.

Jeanne: What do I mean by that? So I mean that something's coming up for me right now and I'm not really sure, but I'm very triggered and activated. I don't need you to do anything about it right now, but I just need you to hear me out. That builds intimacy more than going into rescue mode, trying to fix everything when nobody's asking for that, right?

Jeanne: It's you're just asking to be heard in this moment, and it works for both sides. It's not a one-sided partnership. It works for both sides that we can express what is true for us.

Mike: Jeanne, you just took me back. I just had a flashback to a podcast I did year one of this, and I think we're now on year four of this, where I had a woman who was in recovery and she went back to college to her college or husband's college for a football weekend. And as they were walking towards the stadium, she said... She stopped, and he looked at her and said, "What's going on?" And she said, "I'm having a craving." The smells, the memories, "And I'm having a craving." And he said, "Should we go?" And she goes "No." She said, "I just wanted you to know that I'm having a craving, and support me and help me breathe. I'll be okay." And I was like that, we talked about that. That's what you're talking about, right? Is she knew what she needed and rather than assume and let him take over, which wouldn't have been what she needed, they communicated. That's a strong relationship.

Jeanne: Absolutely. You're giving a person space to advocate for what they need rather than, if I need a bowl of soup going to the hardware store to get a hammer is not gonna work for me.

Jeanne: So sometimes we get... people mean they mean with the best of intentions, but sometimes they don't meet us where we need, right? It's of no value to me at that moment, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: Maybe this is implicit in what you've been saying, but you say on your website, The Recovery Concierge, that you don't believe in a one-size fits-all approach.

Mike: How do you then tailor, when you work with somebody, how do you tailor an individual approach?

Jeanne: So first of all, I always think you can escalate up, but you can't escalate down. So we have to look at things unique to an individual rather than broad strokes. So a lot of times if we have an addiction issue, we think that they need to have an intervention, they need to go to rehab or the highest level of intervention, and maybe that is true in some cases and maybe not.

Jeanne: So we wanna look at somebody's level of motivation. How motivated are they to look at this on their own? Because I have people come to me go, "I know I'm in trouble." That person doesn't need rehab. They may benefit from rehab, but at the end of the day, outside of rehab is where the litmus test of recovery is gonna come from, right?

Jeanne: They've gotta navigate real life, and they're not in a confined bubble either. So the real world is full of temptations. Sometimes people do need a clean start. They need to be away from everything to get some ground, to get some headway. So it's looking at the individual, their level of motivation and readiness for change, and also obviously risk factors with that goes without saying.

Jeanne: But what we're competing with is really someone's in love with something, a substance or a behavior, that is more important than to anything else. So the question is, what else competes with that? Because that is taking up their whole life right now because they don't have better tools. They don't have better ways, so they don't really have a better option.

Jeanne: So that's why they're falling back to what is easy, because they know that it's the most predictable way to get out of pain very quickly, and it always delivers, so that's why they do it. So if we can find something else that they love... So I have a young man I'm working with right now. Golf is probably the only thing that is more important to him than cocaine, right? (laughs)

Mike: (laughs)

Jeanne: So we're gonna work with golf, okay? That works. It just depends. We have to meet people where they are rather than where we think they need to be.

Mike: Okay, so on your website, you also then talk about crafting a life balance in that you advocate for 21st century healing methods, you say, that aren't even yet mainstream.

Mike: And boy, are we seeing an influx of that. But what are some of those emerging tools, besides golf?

Jeanne: So first of all, I think we have science now, so we need to incorporate science into evidence-based practices, right? There's always a bit of a resistance, even with EMDR for trauma healing.

Jeanne: It's still resisted by the scientific CBT community. But we now have evidence that trauma is in the body, not in the brain, so therefore, we can't talk our way out with CBT therapy when we know we need to process trauma by releasing it somatically. So there's a bit of a resistance always, and there's many reasons, and we don't need to go, 'cause that's a whole 'nother podcast for sure. But so I think somatic, I think, but it's... And I was just saying to you before we even got on, we know that nutrition influences brain chemistry. Just give it sugar to a child. We know that sugar shows up the same way as cocaine on brain scans. So why are we not incorporating better nutrition, especially into mental health?

Jeanne: I'm not saying there's no room for medication. There could be room for medication. It may be necessary, but so is nutrition. So there's a lot of different areas where I think... And obviously movement, fundamental sleep. Sleep is a huge precursor for someone relapsing. Fatigue. It was always the same for me as well.

Jeanne: So getting those dialed in really quickly, as hokey as they sound, you're talking about nutrition, you're talking about movement, you're talking about sleep. But that is a lever that can be leveraged big time with all the other things and make everything else that much easier.

Mike: That's the key, right?

Mike: Is if you're doing those things, then everything else flows from that, and you don't maybe need as much of a heavy intervention.

Jeanne: Absolutely.

Mike: Yeah.

Jeanne: And again, it comes into the readiness of the individual. Regardless whether someone's suffering with mental health or not, these are just good protocols regardless, right?

Jeanne: If you wanna optimize your health and wellbeing and your joie de vivre in life, this is the protocol. It's very simple, but you know it.

Mike: Yeah. This has been delightful. This is a great way to start a conversation with you. If you're open to this, as I said Jeanne's podcasts are terrific.

Mike: We could do more if you're up for that. We could-

Jeanne: I'm always up for it. Thank you.

Mike: Yeah. It'd be great. I'm gonna put links to her stuff, as you all know on our podcast blurb. I really thank you for your work and for your optimism more than anything else. For those of you listening, watching, we really both hope that you find peace, courage, support, and insight wherever you are.

Mike: We thank you for listening, watching. Be safe, be well, and be open.