Love is Love

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Despite a growing acceptance of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer communities over the recent years in many parts of our and society, this subset of population remains at a significantly elevated risk of addiction and mental health difficulties compared to the general United States adult population.

Mike: In fact, recent studies have even shown that significant differences exist among individual LGBQ and T subgroups. Our guests are from central Wisconsin. Kelly and Andrew team up to educate folks about understanding and accepting gender dysphoria and have been kind enough to join us for this conversation today.

Mike: Welcome to both of you.

Kelly: Thank you, Mike.

Andrew: Thank you.

Mike: Yeah. Well, I thought we'd start by just having you introduce yourself. Andrew, why don't you, why don't you just give us a short little introduction and we'll go from there.

Andrew: Sure. Yeah, my name is Andrew Borchardt. We're from Stevens Point, Wisconsin. I'm 22 years old.

Andrew: I turn 23 next month.

Mike: Happy birthday.

Andrew: Thanks. Currently, I'm not in school anymore. I was going to school at UW Milwaukee for a while. Then when like COVID hit, I had to move back home and I was doing it online. I didn't really like it. I kind of hopped around between a bunch of majors. I didn't really, I'm not really sure what I want to do, but currently I work at a radio station here.

Andrew: Which I think is pretty cool. I really like my job.

Mike: What do you do? Do you produce? Are you on air?

Andrew: I'm not on air. No. Basically when our sports broadcaster goes out and broadcasts the games, I'm the one in the studio doing all the technical stuff.

Mike: Well, Andrew, you should be on air. If I had your voice, I could charge more money.

Andrew: (laugh)

Mike: That'd be great. And Kelly, you're, you're Andrew's mom, right?

Kelly: Yeah. Yep. I'm Kelly Borchardt. I'm Andrew's mom. I'm in the Marshfield area. I have two kids, Andrew, and then Andrew has an older sister, Sienna, who's just going to graduate from law school.

Kelly: And she has been greatly influenced by Andrew and is going into like social justice issues. And so we're super happy about that. Yeah. And in my professional life, I'm in a nonprofit executive director and in the early childhood world, my whole life.

Mike: Well, Andrew, why this issue? You might as well get to that, right?

Mike: Why, why the issue around LBGTQ?

Andrew: What do you mean by that?

Mike: Well, why that? Are you trans?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, I am trans. Yeah (chuckle)

Mike: And, and so when did you two start doing this?

Andrew: I think when I was, what, like 18? No, 17? Somewhere in high school. I know that. I was either a junior or senior in high school.

Andrew: She got in touch with like a friend of hers, Dr. Corey.

Kelly: We had an opportunity to present at a Toward One Wisconsin conference, which is all about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we were part of a panel discussion there with a local doc from Marshfield Clinic who was very interested in LGBTQ issues and trans issues for, for young kids.

Kelly: And Andrew was brave and willing to, to talk about this issue.

Mike: Yeah, I hear the word brave a lot when I talk to folks from the community and being out front with it. What was school like for you, Andrew?

Andrew: School was actually pretty good. I was going to a Catholic school for a really long time.

Andrew: We started when I was like, like preschool, almost and then I went to the Catholic school up until I was a sophomore in high school. And I really never had any problems with like peers. It was always like teachers or parents that always created a problem. I don't remember any bullying that I experienced. Most of the time my friends really didn't care.

Andrew: But I didn't come out till I think I was like, either eighth grade or freshman year of high school, somewhere around there. And even after that, like most of my friends were like, yeah, we kind of figured that. Like, it wasn't really a big surprise to anybody (chuckle)

Mike: I'm in schools Andrew all the time, and the peers, for the most part, there's always a couple of dopes, but they're great, you know, it's like, yeah, so what, you know, I bet your friends, yeah, so, what's new?

Andrew: Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, so knowing that I like kind of I think I had known that the Catholic school wasn't really going to let me do anything transition wise. So I went and I switched to the public school when I was a junior, and I, it was a lot, it was a lot better I mean I feel like a lot.

Andrew: I mean, I had like teachers and faculty members at the Catholic school that were there for me, but because they were teachers, they couldn't really do anything, you know, they were like, basically, like, we could get fired or, you know, stuff like that. Like, I remember my sister even told me that, you know, like if they taught about contraceptives, like they could be fired.

Andrew: So she had a teacher. The teacher doesn't work there anymore. So I feel comfortable talking about this, but basically my sister was a, I think she was like a junior or senior. She was in like a science class. And the teacher basically was like, Hey, like I'm shutting the door, locking it.

Andrew: We're not going to talk about this conversation, but I'm going to teach you about contraceptives. And if this leaves the room, I could be fired. So we did have a lot of teachers that were like on our side, but because it was a Catholic school, they couldn't really do anything. So when I went to the public school, it wasn't necessarily more accepting, but it was like, I had more opportunities to like grow and like, I could actually use my name and like use the men's bathroom and stuff like that.

Andrew: Cause I couldn't do that at the Catholic school. So it was a lot less, I had to hide it a lot less, which was really, really (chuckle) much better than it was before.

Mike: This is a silly question, I think, but I get asked it when this subject comes up. How did you pick the name Andrew?

Andrew: (chuckle) That's a funny story. Well, first off, it's my dad's middle name.

Andrew: But I do kind of have a story. So, I think I was a freshman in high school. And my sister was a senior. And there was days where I think she had like volleyball practice or something like that, where she couldn't take me home because I didn't I never driver's license at the time.

Andrew: So I had to take the bus. It was pretty rare. It was like maybe once every two weeks or something like that. But I hated riding the bus because they messed up my bussing like pretty significantly, like a couple of years earlier than that, where like, they basically told me like, this is your bus number.

Andrew: And I got on it and it was not the right bus number. And like, they dropped me off in the middle of nowhere, pretty much. So like, I refused to take the bus as much as possible after that. Cause they did not know like where I lived. And so I was talking to my friend about this and she was like, Hey, like I, we drive right past your house.

Andrew: I guarantee if you just hop on my bus and we asked the bus driver to drop you off, like he'll do it. And I was like, okay. So I pretty much did that. When I had to and that was before I had come out. So I was still going by she/her pronouns and my previous name. And I had a lot of social anxiety back then.

Andrew: Basically all throughout middle school and high school I did. But I was too shy to tell the bus driver that I was on. So I had my friend do it, and she would be like. Like to quote, she'd be like, Oh, like she's on today, drop her off. So she was using she/her pronouns. And then when I came out, I told her like my new pronouns and I hadn't picked a name at that time. And so the next time I was on the bus, she switched my pronouns and the bus driver, he didn't care. He was old. He was an older guy and he looked like he had been through a little bit, so he really didn't know what was going on. So he didn't care, he didn't say anything.

Andrew: But the guys in the back of the bus picked it up, picked up on like the change. And there were a bunch of redneck boys. And so, a couple weeks later I was getting off of the bus and we had stopped off at my house and out of nowhere, one of them just goes, bye, Andrew. And I like turned to my friend and I was like, did you tell them to call me that?

Andrew: And she was like, no, I have no idea where they got that from. And I was like, okay, so that's, I kept it.

Mike: (laugh) It's so good. That is so good. And then you owned it and they probably were just like, huh, right?

Andrew: Yeah, pretty much.

Mike: Kelly, when, when that happened, when Andrew came out and what was the family, friend acceptance curve like for you?

Kelly: That's a great question, Mike. So just to kind of preface this, when Andrew was a toddler and first started talking, He would say things to me like, Am I a boy, mama? Am I a boy? Right then, you know, as soon as he was able to kind of express his feelings, I knew that he felt more masculine, preferred masculine things.

Kelly: Loved to be like in boy clothes, do like much more masculine things. And so, you know, when he was a little kid, I would say, you know, I would correct and say, you're a girl, but I always felt like I tried hard to let him do what he wanted to do. He didn't want to wear a dress. He wanted to wear a baseball cap.

Kelly: He wanted to wear boy clothes. That wasn't a big deal. That wasn't a big deal to me. That wasn't a big deal to his dad. I remember the last time I forced him to wear a dress. I have a, like a more professional portrait of that. And in the picture, you can see I'm carrying a tissue and he looks like he's crying.

Kelly: And that was like the last time that I forced that issue with him, knowing how much it affected him and his feelings. And so I think because, you know, well, of course, you know, we always want to gender people and have them be a he or a she. Of course we would refer to him as she in our family and things like that and use his previous name.

Kelly: But for the most part. Our family and friends have always been pretty accepting of that. I mean, people slip up about pronouns and things like that, but we'll tell you that my dad, 76 year old white man is one of Andrew's biggest fans. And I think it's because his dad and I, and his sister, we've just always accepted him for who he was.

Kelly: And we never really tried to label it or claim one thing or another. It was just. This is this kid and this is who he is and we love him enough to want him to be happy, right?

Mike: Love is love.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think there are still people that question this and be like, Oh, well, you know, it might just be a fleeting thing or a way that he's feeling today.

Kelly: But Andrew has been steadfast since he could talk that, Hey, I feel like a boy. I am a boy. So I think that's been helpful to explain to people.

Mike: Well, you know, part of the reason for having the two of you on is because you do so much education and yet the studies are really stark. So why do you think the addiction rates are so significantly higher for the population?

Mike: And Andrew, especially even in the subgroup, the trans population more so than even the lesbian gay population.

Andrew: I would say they, I see it a lot with people who don't have support groups because it's kind of a easier outlet to go to, like especially trying to get therapy is really hard because it's super expensive.

Andrew: And like a lot of people who are a lot of like LGBT people who are like on their own and like don't have the support of their parents or families, they have to pay for it all themselves. It's, you know, it's hard to get insurance and stuff like that. So I think it's a lot easier to turn to like drinking or drugs because like they don't know what to do.

Andrew: And I've seen it. I've friends, you know. Which is really unfortunate, because I know that like, I have a really good support system, and I'm very privileged and lucky in that way, and I even have like, struggled with addiction in the past and I can attest that it's very easy to like, go down that road, and it's very hard to get out of it like, Yeah.

Mike: What did it do for you when you were using?

Andrew: I started out, I don't really remember when, I never really like drank or smoked weed in high school, it was all started in college. I started off like really, I really didn't do it a lot like in college, I didn't really drink my freshman year.

Andrew: I maybe smoked weed like once or twice just to try it. But when I really started abusing was when I went through a really hard breakup. I think that was between my freshman and sophomore year of college. And I like felt really out of control. I didn't know how to regulate my emotions at the time.

Andrew: It was a lot easier to smoke weed or drink because I didn't have to think about it at all. And it just really kind of spiraled from that. There was a point in time where I was pretty much high every single day, all day long. I would wake up and that's all I would want to do, just so I like didn't have to like think about anything at the time.

Andrew: And it really affected my anxiety levels. Like I felt like I had to be high to like, be calm. Like if I wasn't high I just like, I don't know. I was like having anxiety all the time. And this went on for maybe, maybe like. a year straight and then all of a sudden one day, it was around my birthday.

Andrew: I think I took a few too many edibles. And I had a really bad experience when I was high. Thankfully my friend was with me at the time. She's also a paramedic. So I was like freaking out. I was like, I need to go to the hospital. Like I was in a lot of physical pain. It was super weird.

Andrew: And she was basically like, no, like, I think you just got a little too high. Just go to bed. Like I'll stay with you all night. You're going to be fine. And then after that experience, I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that again. And I don't think I've smoked weed in like two years. But the problem was is I didn't have another outlet.

Andrew: I think I had just started therapy up again. So instead, and I had just turned 21. I remember this was around the time I was 21, so I could go to the bars. And so instead of like trying to wean myself off of it in a way. I just switched to drinking. So I started drinking And I had a I have a friend who's a bartender. So I basically would just be hanging out at the bar every day now instead of smoking weed which was I didn't I won't say it was better, but there it was I did it less frequently.

Andrew: Cause like I could just smoke weed all day, every day right. But like, I'm not going to wake up at eight in the morning and like get absolutely obliterated. But it was pretty much almost every single day I was at the bar, you know, at 8 PM. Right. And

Andrew: I mean, to this day, I like, I still drink, but it's, I've definitely cut back significantly. I mean, there'd be days where, I mean, I would... Like there'd be like, like a string of days where like I would be like pretty much waking up every day feeling like crap. I remember back in college, this was before I was 21, and I think it was, it was around about the same time that was when I was like smoking a lot.

Andrew: Kind of in the same friend group as the girlfriend I had broken up with me, and it was really difficult to navigate that having to see her pretty much every day. So I remember there would be days, or I remember now, but there'd be, there was like days and like weeks at a time where I'm like, I don't have any memory of that, because I know I was that messed up, like... Drinking wise, my sister lived across the hall from me, like we lived in the same apartment complex, and they had, her and her roommate had like a liquor cabinet, and I remember I went through the entire liquor cabinet in one semester by myself. Because my sister doesn't really drink, and her roommate only drank his specific like Patrón or something like that, so like I knew nobody was drinking the cabinet of liquor except for me.

Andrew: So when I had moved back home during COVID I had established a new therapist. My old therapist that I had had since I was five till I was like 18, he retired. So for a little bit, when I was living in Milwaukee, I didn't have a therapist. And then I established a new one and we really got to talking about like my mental state.

Andrew: You know, drinking and smoking weed. And I was like, I just feel like out of control. And she really helped me to navigate through that. Especially with smoking weed. I was experiencing a lot of like voices in my head and seeing visuals and doing it every single day, it really messes with you. And so we've really gotten to like work through that and stuff.

Andrew: Which has been pretty good. I don't drink really anymore these days. I've been getting really into fitness lately. So I've kind of stopped drinking because I drink beer so it really kind of messes with your fitness goals (chuckle).

Mike: Yes, it does (chuckle). Well, Kelly, Andrew mentioned anxiety a minute ago and then some of them, you know, going to see a therapist. 2 percent of the general population.

Mike: Adult population is went through a suicide ideation and attempt. 17 percent of the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population have, but the studies show that 40 percent of the transgender population has made a suicide attempt. So mental health is a huge issue. When you do the education, you must talk about that, right?

Kelly: We do. And we were really careful to acknowledge that we know that our experience is unique and we were very privileged and had a lot of supports and access to health insurance. And we know that a lot of young people don't have that and don't have those supports. And we do, we have some statistics that we share from like the Trevor project to really hit home for people that might not be aware of what those statistics look like in youth, so that it really hits home there. Because we think that by offering these presentations and information that when people have more education and knowledge, they can be more accepting. And they can understand that we also like to hit hard on the science part of being transgender and what the brain development looks like for people who are their brain believes they're one gender and their physical body believes they're another gender, because sometimes just understanding science data and statistics people can understand better.

Kelly: And then we couple that with like our personal experiences and lived experiences to help people understand, you know, those people who learn better through hearing about those types of things.

Mike: And we're going to put some of the links to those educational pieces at the bottom of the podcast. But what have you both found when you do the presentation, what's the acceptance like?

Andrew: I'd say it's pretty accepting. We typically, the people we've talked to are a lot of like healthcare workers.

Mike: Cause they have to deal with this.

Andrew: Yeah, like, students at the medical college, we've done a bunch of times. We talked to Planned Parenthood just recently. So it's a lot of the times these people we're talking to do interact with a lot of members of the LGBT community.

Andrew: And it's more of a matter of like, they don't want to offend anybody and they're like, okay, so like, what do I do in this situation? Or like, how do I address this rather than them being like, well, like, are you sure? You know, I don't believe in this. It's more of like, they understand and yes, they're very accepting.

Andrew: It's just a matter of like, they don't know what to do to like, try to like make some comfortable in the most, like the more comfortable way or something like that. So it's, it's more of like. They have questions for us a lot of the times, and we just kind of answer those questions.

Mike: Oh, I love that! Hold on a minute. I love that. Because when, when you're not around, when, because I've been part of some of these discussions, when nobody in your community is around, people wonder a lot, right, about, and they have questions, but I think a lot of people, would you both agree, a lot of people don't want to offend, so they don't know if they can even ask.

Mike: Are there questions that are off limits or do you just like go just ask?

Andrew: That's a really good question. Me personally, I don't really care if you ask me any questions. Nine times out of ten, when somebody's asking a really weird question, it's genuinely because they don't understand and it's not because they want to offend you.

Andrew: And typically, The people I'm talking to, like, if I meet somebody in public or like, if I'm sitting at the bar and I meet somebody for like two seconds, I'm probably not going to tell them I'm trans. But if there's somebody who, like a friend is introducing a mutual friend or something like that, and I know I'm like going to be interacting with this person often, probably tell them.

Andrew: And nine times out of the ten, they've never, like, they've never met a trans person before. They, you know, they don't know anybody who is trans or something like that. So, like, they just have genuine questions of like, Oh, okay. So like what's appropriate to say what's not like, how do I, what, how do I say this?

Andrew: How do I do that? And I'm like, yeah, like you can ask any question you'd like. I, me personally, I don't really care. I'm pretty open. I mean, I talk about this in front of a bunch of people. I think it's beneficial for me to be as open and honest as possible. Because I'm in this position where I'm like, I don't really care if you want to ask me questions, you know.

Andrew: But there are a lot of other trans people who get very touchy with that subject and not everybody wants to talk about it like I do. Like I really don't care. But I know, like, there's a lot of other people who, they don't want to be asked questions like that, they don't want to have to continuously explain to people, you know, it's not our job as a community to explain these things to people, right?

Andrew: I just do it because, that's just me personally.

Mike: I love that. It's like almost nobody comes up to me and asks me about my dating preferences, right?

Kelly: Right.(laugh)

Mike: And yet they feel like, well, we have pendulums in our society, right? And they swing and well, I don't think I'm the only one to make this observation, far from it.

Mike: We seem to have two pendulums going at once right now. There's a bunch of folks in our society who are really accepting like you're talking about. But the elephant in the room is there's a whole segment of the society that is not particularly accepting as an intolerant. How did the two of you handle the intolerance?

Kelly: Before you start, Andrew, I'm just gonna say that what I love about the way that he approaches things is he's very forgiving of people. He really is. He tries not to internalize and hold something against somebody he's more willing to help educate than many people are. So I love that about him. And so, Andrew, you go.

Andrew: Okay. When we do these presentations, I don't think we've ever, like, come across somebody who's...

Kelly: Not during presentations, but I think we've seen it in different social groups and among family members sometimes.

Andrew: Like, when I was going to the Catholic school, I think we saw it mostly there. Like, it's never disrespectful, I would say.

Andrew: It's more of, like, people are just uneducated and they're uncomfortable because it's something new and they don't know what to do with it. And typically, the people we come across if you just explain it to them and be like, Hey, like, this is what it is, this is. You know, this is what's going to happen.

Andrew: And this is the reasons why. And they're like, okay. And then people, they usually get a little freaked out. Cause like they expect such a drastic change. I'd be like, oh my God, like what's going to happen. And then they just kind of learn that I'm the same person. You know, maybe I look a little different.

Andrew: But, other than that, nothing's really changed and for me personally, I've kind of always looked like this, I've always had short hair, I've always worn a hat, so it's not like there was a big physical difference with me so I think, I think that benefited me a lot, because, you know, you often see times with trans people, there's a very big difference of what they looked like before and what they look like now.

Mike: Mm hmm.

Andrew: And for me, there really isn't much of a difference except for I guess hormones changed a little bit, but I mean, I've always kind of looked like this. So there wasn't really that drastic of a physical difference for me. And so I think that was a lot easier for other people. Cause they're like, Oh, like that's, that's still me.

Andrew: Like that's still you, you know what I mean? So I think a lot of the times when we dealt with people like that, it was more of a matter of like, just comforting them and being like, you know, like this isn't something that. Be fearful of this isn't, you know, something that is like going to affect you in any way.

Andrew: Right. So it was like people, once they came around to the idea and they're like, Oh, okay. Like this isn't as bad as I thought pretty much is kind of what happens. So, yeah.

Kelly: I just think that when we've had personal connections with people who are doubters or not believers or not accepting.

Kelly: It's a lot different than when you see things on social media or in the news or what you're hearing about people talking about with politics and things like that. That's where it gets tricky. And I think like. Kids like Andrew and I'll call him a kid because I'm his mom, but I mean they have so many social media outlets and they can make so many more choices about who they listen to and what they listen to that it's just different than back when you and I were young where it was like, okay, well we've got the, you know, the world news or things like that, that what we're hearing. But nowadays, there's just so many more outlets and when you want to connect with people that are like minded, you have so many more opportunities to do that today.

Mike: Yeah. Andrew, you're young. Could you imagine doing this without access to... could you imagine living in a rural part of the state 30, 40 years ago and your, your entire social network is within your town? Wow!

Andrew: Yeah, that would have definitely sucked. I mean, when I was like in grade school, I remember there was like nobody like me.

Andrew: I felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb. And I genuinely don't know where I got this complex thought that I was the only person in the world that felt like this. But it never was like, Oh my god!, like, what's wrong with me? Why do I think this like, and being going to a Catholic school, I was raised Catholic, and I never thought like, oh my god, I'm gonna go to hell.

Andrew: I was, I genuinely was like, nope, like, if I think and feel this way, this is normal. Like, I never, which is, I don't know why I was like that.

Kelly: Well, part of it was the therapy we had you in since you were five years old.

Andrew: Ya, that's true.

Kelly: Honestly, I was always concerned about his mental health and his acceptance of himself.

Kelly: And so that was super helpful that we had him in therapy.

Mike: Well and what the two of you have emphasized during this is support, love, honesty, right? And acceptance. And isn't that really the, not cure, but isn't that the recipe for positive mental health and staying away from addiction to begin with?

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly: In our opinions, yes. Yes.

Mike: And as a go away, when people finish listening to the two of you, what do you hope they take away from it?

Andrew: Good question. I just like, what I, what we always do in our presentations is like, what do we say again? We have like three points.

Kelly: A greater awareness of LGBTQ people, transgender people some tips and techniques to create safe places. Just acceptance of people who might be different than you, right?

Mike: Sounds great. You know, I really appreciate the work that both of you are doing and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this today. When I read the statistics on mental health as well as addiction, I'm like, well, we have to talk about this. So again, we will put links to all of this to additional materials at the end of the podcast.

Mike: Andrew, Kelly, thank you so much for being here with us today. And for those of you who are listening, you know we invite you to always listen. Listen in next time, anytime you're able. And until then, stay safe and be you.