Post Traumatic Growth

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Today, I'm pleased to have back as our guest, Felicia Labatore. For those of you who listen regularly, you may recall that Felicia wears many hats. Mom, speaker, police officer, peer coordinator, and advocate for mental health.

Mike: We talked to Felicia a couple of years ago about losing her son, Clay, who took his own life at age 16. And she was kind enough to chat with us again and catch us up with her work and her personal recovery. Felicia is dedicated in addressing this very difficult issue that she's personally dealt with and to help others heal from it if they're going through it as well.

Mike: Welcome back, Felicia.

Felicia: Hi, great to be back.

Mike: Wow, it's always nice to talk to you. You know, the last time we were together, we talked about losing Clay a lot and we talked about Clay. I don't want to redo that conversation and I'll put a link at the end of the podcast to that conversation for those who want to hear the first one, who haven't heard it.

Mike: But I wanted to ask you this. It's almost like a part two. Felicia, how long did you dwell after Clay took his life, how long did you dwell on the question, why?

Felicia: You know, I'm so glad that you asked this because I recently was interviewed on a different podcast and I knew that they were going to ask some questions about in the beginning.

Felicia: So we're talking 10 years ago now. And I am a journaler. I probably said that before on the last podcast. And so I went back for the first time in 10 years and read my journals. Because I needed to remind myself where I was in the beginning, because I think sometimes what can happen is when people listen to me, they can think, you know, she didn't hurt or she didn't suffer.

Felicia: It wasn't hard for her. Like she's just out there now, like doing the thing. And that's not how it was all the time. And so I almost needed to remind myself of just what those first what that first year was. And so I am so grateful that I wrote everything that I was feeling then it was so therapeutic obviously then, but it also is helping me to remember where I was.

Felicia: So anyway, to answer your question, I definitely asked the question why I think that's natural. I think so many people will ask that because you want to know the answer. And it was months, but I would say I didn't dwell on it because I knew once I started asking that question, I would just go down a rabbit hole.

Felicia: So what I've learned, I would say from asking the question why, is that you're never going to have the answer. Even if you think you know the answer, you're not going to have the answer. And what if I did have the answer? What if Clay was sitting right here and told me the answer? Did that change the fact that he still died by suicide?

Felicia: It doesn't. So it's not going to change how I am. So to me, I really had to learn very early on dwelling on a why. You're never going to get it. And even if you got it, it's not going to be helpful.

Mike: What did you find by going back through the journals? Like, what, what did you go, oh my.

Felicia: Yeah, what I found is I can't wait to write a book someday because I know I'm not the only one.

Mike: No.

Felicia: No matter how you lose someone. And I think the hope that... I couldn't believe like how there were things that I wrote, like, I don't know that I could do this forever. Like, I feel like I still can't breathe. How am I ever going to laugh again? All these things, right? I wrote letters to Clay. I just expressed everything during those times and I learned how grateful I was that I wrote, that I wrote because going back now 10 years, I could go, thank God I'm not where I used to be.

Mike: Yeah. Talk about that. Talk about the stages of recovery that you went through.

Felicia: Yeah. You know, I mean, recovery is forever. It's not like it goes away. It's not like suddenly I wake up tomorrow and I'm, you know, better. I mean, yes, I'm living and I'm doing good, but so stages I think are really important, but not to think that it's all 1 through 10 and then you hit the finish line.

Mike: In order right? (laugh)

Felicia: And I think the first thing was just... Well, one, just learning to breathe again, just learning to like, okay, this really happened because I think your body can stay in shock for a while and denial. Like, I cannot believe this happened to me. And I think also that you need to just accept it, which is really a hard word of like, this is my reality because really bad things can happen to really good people.

Felicia: It happens every single day. And so just accepting where it is. And then for me, it was choosing to not live in the shame and guilt that that can bring. When you lose someone to addiction, to suicide, you know, something that's can be deemed your fault to not stay in shame or guilt because you're not going to get anywhere if you stay there and then doing all the things like.

Felicia: What am I going to do to be well and I mean, that's a whole path, right? I mean, I could give you 10 things, but I would say that those are the number one things of not staying in shame and guilt and choosing to live.

Mike: You know, we talked about a lot here. Depression is very real. Although people, you know, we still stigmatize it, right?

Mike: Do you think as you went back and read your journals and stuff, do you think that you sunk down to that level and did you get help for it? Or. You know, how did that, and you're also a cop, right?

Felicia: Like when you say sunk down, like sunk down to the depression?

Mike: Yeah, yeah.

Felicia: You know, people ask me about that time and I'm very honest that I, I of course was incredibly sad, incredibly sad and cried so much.

Felicia: That was something I'm like, I've cried all day today. But just being sad and depressed are two different things to me. And I don't feel like I was ever in that state. I'm so grateful. And I know lots of people go there. People also ask me like, Hey, did you need some sort of pharmaceuticals to get through that time?

Felicia: And I didn't, I chose, it was on purpose though. My husband and I chose not to drink any alcohol for six months. And I didn't feel like I needed any type of anti anxiety or anti depression. I really think my journals helped me through that, and I had people around me, I had a couple specific people around me that I could talk about all the things that I was feeling without judgment, right?

Felicia: And that wouldn't try to fix it because you can't fix it. And that would just sit in that with me. And I think that was my way help. But of course, yes, I did seek a professional as well and not only just a regular therapist. But I also went to a suicide survivor group and they taught me so much about how to live through this process of that initial grief.

Mike: What did you learn from them?

Felicia: You know, I learned how important self care was because of being a police officer. I'm the one and our family and my friend group that they all come to me for answers. And during that time, I had to learn that it was time to take care of Felicia.

Felicia: And it wasn't even time for me to take care of my husband, like he had to learn his process. And, or my mom, like I really learned for me to be well, the rest of my life, I had to take care of me first.

Mike: How long did that take?

Felicia: It still happens. (chuckle) I am so good with boundaries. (laugh) Everyone's like, teach me how you say no.

Felicia: And I'm like, it's easy. (laugh)

Mike: Well, but it doesn't start out easy.

Felicia: No, but it was so true. Like, I learned so quickly. And this happens now, like, people want to kind of plug into me for my energy or my wellness, and I'm like, but I'm only well because I work out every day and because I take the time to cook healthy food and because I take the time to slow down and journal.

Felicia: So that all takes time. The only way I get to stay well and do things like this is knowing that I have parameters around how much I give to others.

Mike: Okay, you just mentioned nine things in one sentence. And let's talk about them for just a second. Did you have that skill set to begin with and then tapped into it?

Mike: Or did you have to acquire things like eating healthy, exercise, getting your own rest, setting boundaries?

Felicia: So I would say I've always been a journaler. My whole life I've journaled. But the other things, no, like I barely, you know, being a police officer, you work crazy schedules. So no, I wasn't getting the sleep and, you know, working second and third shift.

Felicia: You're eating crap food because you're going from call to call. So no, I definitely had to learn all that. And it wasn't like I woke up month one after Clay and was like, I'm going to be a pillar of health because that was not true at all. But I would say very early on, I decided that I was going to share our story.

Felicia: And that I needed to be well to do that. So what did that look like? So I started reading self help books and listening to self help podcasts and all those things. And they all kind of say the same things. And I just felt like I had a calling on my life. And if I was going to do it, then I needed to really take care of me and all the areas.

Mike: So did you hesitate then? Did you pause before you started doing some of the speaking and training until you felt ready to do it?

Felicia: No. I think, you know, I started right away, right. Football teams and youth group. And so I kind of jumped into it right away. So I don't know that I paused, but I would say that I've gotten much better over the years of knowing. 'Cause sometimes I was going too much and I could see that it was starting to affect me. When I was in the schools it was a lot to be in the schools 'cause I was going in all the health classes. And then that's when I made my first video. 'cause I was like, well I can just make a video and it can be played in the schools and it's still played in the schools now.

Felicia: So really being in tune and that's what I would say to people, you know, if you've lost somebody. No matter how you've lost them or whatever you're going through, even if you haven't lost somebody, but you have somebody in your life that's struggling. Really being in tune with where you're at, your body.

Felicia: And the only way you can do that is to get quiet. And so much of today is go, go, go, go, go, go. And nobody ever stops to really ask themselves like. Where am I? What am I feeling? How did today go? What worked? What didn't? And that's what that's one thing that I would really say is really just get in tune with you.

Mike: Okay, that's scary. Isn't it? That's scary for a lot of people because if I keep go go going then I don't have to look at parts of me that might come up that are sad or traumatizing, right? So I think did you think that's why a lot of people go go go and don't do the reflecting you're talking about?

Felicia: For sure.

Felicia: Absolutely, that's why they do it because either one, they might have to put up a boundary around something.

Mike: Yep.

Felicia: Something or someone and nobody wants... so many people don't want change or they're afraid of change.

Mike: You know, I contacted you again, cause I saw a flyer. And you're doing another training and you use the word post traumatic recovery.

Mike: Did you make that up or have I just, I love the term.

Felicia: I love... it's really post traumatic growth, right? Like so many people I had listened to a podcast recently that was talking about the difference between being resilient and growth after trauma. And resilience is that kind of, okay, you've bounced back to who you were and now you're continuing. Where growth is, you've bounced back and now you're thriving and living and, you know, helping others or whatever.

Felicia: And I'm like, yes, that's what I want to do. And so how did you want me to explain?

Mike: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Felicia: So, you know, we started the Clay Davison Legacy Scholarship Fund where we help provide scholarships for people in Kenosha County that want to go to school for something in the mental health field. And we hold a comedy night every other year.

Felicia: And we just had held one and Carrie Foss was at the comedy night. And she's like, Felicia, we got to, we got, we got to have a night where like people can come in and hear you. And I'm like, no one's going to come to that. No one wants to come to listen to a mom talk about her child that died by suicide.

Felicia: Like it's, she's like, but you pack this room out, you've sold out in like 15 minutes. And I'm like, well, yes, because they're coming for a fun night. But what I think would work is if I go to businesses, like let's open up, let's do a collaboration with the Kenosha police department. I've been here 28 years and with the Kenosha County behavior health and we'll go to businesses and we'll show the documentary that was made. And then we'll do a Q and A and let's show people and give people hope because when they are struggling with any type of mental health and or somebody in their family struggling mental health addiction, man, people feel hopeless. And I want people to know that like, if I can choose to live and get up every day and still have a productive life and live my life and love my husband and have great friends and that you can do, right?

Felicia: So let's give them some tools. Let's give them some resources and let's put it out there and see what businesses are interested in doing it. So that's how it came about.

Mike: And that's the flyer I saw.

Felicia: Yes.

Mike: See, so it gets around, right?

Felicia: Yeah, I'm excited. That's a different thing, right? That's a different space for me to be in is in corporate or businesses.

Felicia: So I'm excited for that.

Mike: Well, speaking of a place where we sometimes turn away from stuff like that, it's uncomfortable, right? Well, and I care. I also think Felicia, right? People stay away from things that they don't feel skilled at. They don't want to look stupid. You know, how many people have mental health concerns in the workplace, but they have a supervisor who doesn't know how to deal with that.

Mike: They know what their business is.

Felicia: Yes. Yeah. They don't even know how to open it up or how to talk about it or anything. And I'm like, you don't have to have the answers. People do not have the answers. That's what there's professionals for. It's just having a conversation even so that's what I'm hoping to like just me coming in to be so open and vulnerable that it would at least start the conversation in places because, you know, we obviously I'm sure you know the statistics way more than me, but people are struggling, especially post COVID.

Mike: Well, and choosing to live, as you said, takes work.

Felicia: Well, it is true. And that's, I guess. You know, one thing that I would say is like, I kind of mentioned this a few minutes ago, but like, you know, getting alone with yourself and really asking yourself, like, what do you want? What do you want? And so many people can't answer that.

Felicia: What do you want today? Like at the end of the day, what do you want today to look like for you? And what are those small steps for you to get there? You were asking me about it. Did I just wake up and like charge into this healthy lifestyle. You know what? I started out walking two times a week. I was, I grew up an athlete, but then it gets away from you.

Felicia: You know, you're working, you have three kids, you know, you're running around. And then after Clay, I definitely let myself go even more. But then when I decided to get well, like I literally started walking twice a week for 20 minutes. And now I work out six days a week, at least for 30 minutes. I feel like a million bucks, but it's just starting with What do you want?

Mike: Did you this is a hard question to ask, but when something traumatic happens, often our thoughts go to bad things will keep on happening, that awfulizing, right? How do you get rid of the naturally occurring cynicism and the negative expectations that life is only going to give you lemons?

Felicia: Well, I, again, I would say that I've learned this.

Felicia: I wasn't this in the beginning, but I've learned this over my past 10 years is, is it true? You know, Dr. Daniel Amen has a great book out there and he has great work about have you, are you familiar with Dr. Daniel Amen?

Mike: I'm not sure.

Felicia: Okay. So he is somebody that takes images of your brain.

Felicia: And he has the most images out of anyone. If you look at, if people Google him...,

Mike: Yes.

Felicia: [inaudible] And he has a thing, what's called ANTs, Automatic Negative Thoughts, and what do you do with them? And there's like four questions. And you know, one, the first question is, is this true? So if people get stuck in that loop of only bad things are going to happen You ask yourself, Is this true?

Felicia: How do I know this to be true? What if I didn't think this? What would I feel like? And, and that is a great way. But also I would say the negative thinking you're going to find what you look for. You're going to find it. I see it. We teach this to our new officers coming in. When you are working in an environment that can be so negative, right?

Felicia: You're going to people's worst days for eight hours a day. You're not delivering flowers. You're not bringing a birthday cake. You are going to people's worst days every day. (laugh) And so what do you do to counteract all of eight hours? It's the same thing and it's gratitude.

Mike: Uh huh..

Felicia: I would stand on a hill and preach this to people of gratitude every single day.

Felicia: And once you start seeing that and looking for that, I did this, this is one of the things that my therapist had me do in the very beginning. Hey, I want you to go home and write down three things that you're happy for. And I'm like, are you out of your ever loving mind? I just buried my son a month ago.

Felicia: What do you mean? What am I grateful for? How about nothing? (laugh) Right. But then when you really start to realize all of the beautiful things around you, you know, the color of the flower, the way the sun came through my trees, like I felt like it was just speaking to me. You, that's what you find them. So that's what I would say two things.

Felicia: Is this really a true thought? And then to the gratitude part, I mean, it's invaluable to really find... and I still do it every single day, three things I'm grateful for every single day.

Mike: You know, we've talked a lot about that. That's why I'm laughing. Cause I, you know, it keeps coming up. And if it's almost like you listen to every podcast and I know you don't have the time, but you work with a lot of young people.

Mike: You've spoken to a lot of young people. That the things you just mentioned staying out of the negative. It's not easy in adolescence.

Felicia: No. Yeah, it's not. And, you know, I think so many times people ask me, like, how do, you know, teenagers or young people be true friends going through this? And, you know, I think that's just a difficult question to answer because they're teenagers, their brains not even developed, right?

Felicia: Like Clay's friends, they're all 26 now, Clay would be 26. They're all 26. And, of course, we've have so many conversations and they do the shoulda, woulda, couldas, you know, we should have done this or we should have tried this. And, you know, I'm so quick to say, Nope, we're not going to go there. Like now, you know, better and you do better now, but, you know, they didn't even have the tools.

Felicia: You know, this is stuff that we don't teach kids in school, but maybe it's something we should have, like, how do you have those tough conversations or hard conversations when you're worried with your friends? And I think most adults don't even know how to do that. So, you know, we definitely can't expect teens to be able to have those hard conversations. But.

Mike: Well, I don't want to go down that path necessarily, but we, I work in a lot of schools, as you know, and there's some that no longer have me work in them because they have a school board that says you can't talk about any of this stuff. They take it out of the curriculum entirely.

Mike: And I feel so bad for those kids going through stuff.

Felicia: Yeah, I definitely see that and felt that as well. So many people, you know, one of the things that put Clay on a, on a road, right? There's, there's a whole road that put Clay on a, there's a whole lot of things that put Clay on the road of completing suicide and one of them was steroids.

Felicia: And so many schools don't want to talk about that, right? And, and, or they don't even want to talk about like suicide prevention and you know, that's...

Mike: Well, the partner question to this, and I think this is one I'd like to hear your answer for. There had to be a time, and maybe you saw it in your journals, where all of a sudden you began to have a good day and you, and you laughed.

Mike: And I bet ya. Did you feel guilty for all of a sudden enjoying yourself? And how do you get over that so that you give yourself permission?

Felicia: Yeah.

Felicia: Yes. So, yep. I did see that in my journals, of course, because, but what was interesting, I could be like, I'm crying all day, but then, you know, my friend came over and we laughed and then I felt guilty.

Felicia: That absolutely is in there, but that's also something that I learned in my suicide survivor group. And I think it would be taught in any grief type group or grief counseling is what do you do when your days are... So, yes. What do you do then? I have, I have another thought that I want to come back to. But and what I, how I got over it or through it is I asked myself, what would Clay want?

Felicia: Would Clay want me to sit and cry and mourn him every single day for the next 80 years? And the answer is no. He would want me out there living and having fun and smiling. And so that was the question that I would ask myself if, and when I felt guilty about laughing again and, you know, choosing to live again.

Felicia: And it wasn't like that in the very beginning, because, you know, I remember going out those first you know, few months and people are just living their lives. They don't know what we just went through and me thinking like, can the whole world please stop for two minutes? And it doesn't. But yeah, so I just think, you know, what would your loved one want for you?

Mike: What's the thought you wanted to come back to?

Felicia: [inaudible]

Mike: (laugh) I knew it. I knew it.

Felicia: That's what happens, right?

Mike: Well, that makes you human.

Felicia: Gone!

Felicia: I'll think of it.

Mike: Oh, yeah. After we're done with this, right? (laugh)

Mike: What would you, what would you like to, we'll let you wrap it with this. And if it comes to you during this, go ahead. We do have a lot of people, as you know, I've had a lot of people on who have lost children, especially.

Mike: And I can always tell right away I can tell where they're at in that recovery. And there's not always smiles like I see on your face. What would you tell them? Somebody who's going through a traumatic event.

Felicia: Yeah, I mean, first, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Like, it's, it's the hardest thing you will go through.

Felicia: It's the hardest thing you will go through. I truly believe that. And notice I didn't say like, get over, right? Like you don't get over it.

Mike: No.

Felicia: But it's the hardest thing you will go through. But I will, I really will say do the work. Like, do the work. Figure out what you want. Do you want to live?

Felicia: Because I too, I sit with families that have lost people, that have lost their children, one way or the other, in so many stay stuck. And it's so incredibly sad for me, and I'm so sad for them of staying stuck. And so that, the first thing is ask yourself, what do you want? You know, what would your child want and how do you get there surround yourself with healthy positive people?

Felicia: What are you consuming? What are you? What are you watching? What are you listening to? What are you? What are you allowing in your life? Who are you allowing in your space? Because what you allow in is what you're going to feel in your soul. Surround yourself. I was listening to this, that post traumatic podcast, and one of the ladies had lost her husband to suicide.

Felicia: And she said, your address book changes. What your address book look like prior and what your address book looks like after is usually two totally different books. And I would agree with that. You know, some people may have not had a healthy circle before. You have to be intentional about that. You have to be intentional if you want to be well, if you want to be well.

Felicia: So that's it. Like, I'm just, I'm so sorry. I see you. I hear you. It's the hardest thing. Find people that allow you to still talk about your person (laugh) that don't feel awkward when you bring up Clay's name and want to share a story. Like, find those people don't isolate don't bury yourself in non healthy things.

Felicia: Be positive, find gratefulness in every single day. And I am, I am living proof. I promise you, I could cry because I am living proof. Life can really be life again, and it doesn't mean you miss them any less. It just means that they're right there next to you, like cheering you on too.

Mike: Great place to leave it.

Mike: There's a book in there, Felicia. For those of you listening, I know you appreciate Felicia. And, and if you're listening, we have a YouTube channel and you can watch some of these videos. And this is one I would suggest that you watch just so that you can see your face. Is that all right to say? (chuckle)

Mike: The smiles on your face.

Felicia: Yeah.

Mike: We put links to Felicia mentioned several videos. We put links to all of those at the bottom of the podcast. We'd invite you to always listen if you're able to and whenever you can until you can, we hear you again or see you again or contact with you again. We hope that you all stay safe and try to stay happy and it does take work.