Raised by Wolves, Trapped by Demons

[Upbeat Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition. As always, I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Raised by Wolves, Trapped by Demons is a fabulous book written by a truly remarkable and resilient woman who, not coincidentally, happens to be my guest today.

Mike: Mimi Tallo grew up in and around Scranton, Pennsylvania, a northeastern blue collar town, if there ever was one. Surrounded by dysfunction, abuse, and addiction, Mimi chronicles her struggle to make something of her life while battling the demons that seem to pop up around literally every corner. Mimi is a speaker, author, and podcast maven.

Mike: Welcome, Mimi.

Mimi: Thank you for having me.

Mike: Well, I always like to give the backstory first so people know what we're talking about so that they can get stimulated to go buy and read the book. But you had, to say the least, you had a really difficult childhood. Tell tell us a little bit about it

Mimi: Oh my. Well, you know, I didn't know any better. No child knows what normal is. I was the oldest of four. My father was an alcoholic and I like to call him a weekend warrior because he did keep a job and he drank on the weekends. I think he knew he had a problem because he didn't drink every weekend.

Mimi: So when my brother and I would come home from school on a Friday, if there was a quart of Genesee beer on the table, we knew we were in for hell.

Mike: Oh, yeah.

Mimi: Yeah. And he was the type of drinker that he wasn't a fun drinker. He wasn't. And he would call one of us out of our beds in the middle of the night just so he could talk and talk and talk about his terrible life and his terrible childhood.

Mimi: And I didn't know then, but I later realized. I think he was gay. I really do. I believe he was gay. And in the 40s, 50s, 60s. You hid that, you got married, etc. And he was adopted, and, you know, so he had a lot of demons. And my mother, she didn't have the best childhood either. Their parents were both immigrants, Ireland, and Italy.

Mimi: So my mother, she was the oldest in her family, too. And her father owned a bar, coincidentally. (chuckle)

Mike: There you go.

Mimi: Yeah, but he was very mean and strict and she was very cold and self centered. So the worst thing that happened in my early childhood was when I was five, and my brother Matthew was being born, and my brother Joe was four.

Mimi: My parents, as they remember the story, said they had no one to take care of us while mom was in the hospital. Because in those days, if you had a boy, they had to stay in the hospital for a few days and did the circumcision. I don't know, they were crazy. They put us in an orphanage for five days. An orphanage!.

Mike: That story just, I just went, what?

Mimi: I know, right? And my father said, I'll be back. And you know, anyone that's had experience with nuns, and in those days they were penguins. They all had the habit, you know. So I remember that and my brother, they separated the boys and the girls. So that was like a real traumatic experience. And years later, when I brought it up.

Mimi: You know, they pooh poohed it. It's not that bad. You weren't there that long. You weren't there five days. You're probably there a day, you know, that's okay. So I bring that up too, because from that day forward, I don't remember any of my childhood. Five to 11. So that was my childhood. I wasn't allowed to do anything.

Mimi: I was very smart. I wanted to be an English teacher and I went through my high school years thinking I was going to college and on graduation day, they told me I was not going to college because it's a waste of time.

Mike: That's what women did. I want to talk about your mom in a little while.

Mimi: Yeah.

Mike: You talk about, well, for lack of a better word, codependency in a very stark way. You talk about your mom and later in life you gave her a journal.

Mimi: Mm hmm.

Mike: So that you would have memories of her when she passed and go ahead. Tell the (laugh) one of the entries was about getting pregnant.

Mimi: Yeah, it might with me.

Mike: Yeah.

Mimi: So I was the oldest, like I said. And my brother Joe and I, when we were older, we'd kid around and say... Because we never saw them kiss or hug. And we used to say, well, they had to have sex four times because they have four children, so, (chuckle) you know, in their life. And my mother never liked me. So I didn't know why.

Mimi: Maybe because my father did like me. Maybe I was his favorite. I don't know what the story was there. But I was the one that had to take care of her in the end and get her a nursing home, which I got her the best. And she resented me for that. But I flew up from Florida, she was in Pennsylvania, and I took care of everything, made sure everything was top notch, and I gave her this journal.

Mimi: Oh, I don't know what I'm going to write. I said, well, I'll go through it with you. And I went through it, you know, who was your best friend when you were young, blah, blah, blah. So when she died, of course I took the journal home, and I went to the chapter that said, How did you feel when you found out you were pregnant with me?

Mimi: And she wrote in the journal that she knew I would read. Well, we didn't have any money, so I kept jumping up and down off the stairs and taking mustard baths. Now, that sounds like trying to have an abortion to me. (chuckle)

Mike: Yeah, yeah, she's trying to miscarry. Yeah, she's trying to miscarry.

Mimi: But to write it in a book that you knew that person was going to read is so evil.

Mike: Yeah, after she passes, so that's the legacy she's leaving you.

Mimi: That was it. Yes, you're right. I didn't like you and I didn't ever want you and my brother Joe told me that when he read that story and he told me when no one was home, she would take him in the basement, tie him up and beat him with a hose and tell him my life would be so much better if you were never born.

Mimi: I never knew that. I never knew my mother hit any of us because she'd never hit me. You know, I was like astounded that I didn't know that was going on. [inaudible]

Mike: Not the abuse part, but I'll skip ahead because it applies. You got married really young for for the first time, and there's a part in the book where you admonish yourself for not recognizing your first husband was just a younger version of your dad.

Mike: But how many young women make that mistake? You lived in Scranton. That's a mining, drinking... I would imagine alcoholism ran rampant. What kind of a well dating pool did you have?

Mimi: Yeah, exactly. Scranton started out as a coal mining town and the Governor of Scranton's family, when they came around, they changed a lot and they brought railroads in and everything, but it was mostly coal mining.

Mimi: And these miners work 12 hours a day in coal mines. There's a lot of soot in their throat. So every corner literally had a bar and before they went home, they would stop in the bars to get the soot, they'd say, out of their mouth. So they'd have a few beers. Okay. And we used to say, there's only 2 kinds of drinkers in Scranton, the 1 sitting in the bar and the 1 sitting in the AA meeting.

Mike: (laugh) Yeah, right.

Mimi: So, yes, the dating pool was, there were 20 sober men and the smart sober men had gone off to college.

Mike: They were gone.

Mimi: They're gone. So mostly who was left was like, they weren't going anywhere. But I actually got married as an escape mechanism because nothing I brought up, they would allow me to do.

Mimi: And I was brainwashed. You know, it's like almost when you're in a cult. I didn't think I had the agency to leave. I didn't think I had the right, even at 19, that I could leave.

Mike: They told you you couldn't. You don't go to college!

Mimi: I couldn't be, I wanted to be in the Peace Corps. I mentioned the service. I kept coming up with ideas and nope!

Mimi: I actually got offered a job at Capitol Records, and I loved working there, they had an office in Scranton. You remember the record clubs? Are you old enough to remember?

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We won't go into my subscription woes, though.

Mimi: That's what I did, though. I used to do those letters.

Mike: Well, then we talked at some point in my life.

Mimi: We probably did. So I was corresponding with people about their albums and they didn't get them. That was my job, and I was very good. And then Capitol Records was going to build that gorgeous building in Los Angeles that looks like a pile of record albums, right?

Mike: Mm hmm, mm hmm.

Mimi: And they offered me a job to train their people.

Mimi: They would give me a place to live. Give me all my, all expenses paid and everything else, plane ticket and everything, and my other friend was gonna go. I went, I'm so excited, and my father's like, no you're not going, I'll throw myself in front of the plane. I did not go, I had to say no to that job. So every time, I don't know if you realize this, but look at movies, every time they show a picture of L.A., what do you see in the background?

Mimi: That gosh darn Capitol Records building.

Mike: Yeah.

Mimi: So it brings it up every time. So yeah, I had to get married. It was my only way out. And I did like the boy. I love the boy. And I thought he loved me. And, you know, and even that he tried, my father tried to stop, but I didn't know I should go so far, you know?

Mike: You had a serious, I mean, that wasn't the last relationship, your husband. And I love the line that you used in the book, if it's all right if I steal it, where you say that the universe just keeps sending you clones until you learn the lesson the universe wants you to learn. (chuckle)

Mimi: That is true.

Mimi: And that's actually a quote. I want to say Buddhism, but it goes back a long, long way. Hundreds of years, a Buddhist monk said that. But yeah, they said that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Mike: Right? Right.

Mimi: Yeah. And how can I be ready? I had no coping skills.

Mimi: I wasn't taught anything. Oh, I was taught was that I was nothing, I was powerless, I was not good enough. My mother told me I had big ears and I shouldn't wear my hair behind my ears. I mean, I, you know so I was left with no choice. I won't say little choice. No choice. And I did get married. I shouldn't have got married, but I did and he was an alcoholic and I had written him.

Mimi: This was during the Vietnam years and he was in the Navy and yeah, so I married him and found out right away. Oh my God, here we go. He's just a younger, cuter version of my father. (laugh)

Mimi: Oh my God, so that's where I went there. I think I was with him a year and a half and I got very depressed. In fact, I tried to commit suicide. You know, I'm like 22 years old. I'm wanting to kill myself. That was sad. You know but he cheated on me. He drank. He didn't have a job. He abused me. He physically abused me. It was just horrible.

Mike: And then predictably, you discovered that alcohol and drugs took care of those feelings.

Mimi: And the whole reason that happened was I didn't drink at all. And when I would go to a bar with him, I'd order a 7 and 7 and sip on it all night. And he'd make fun of me, because they're all hitting 'em back .

Mimi: So I began to drink then. And then after I divorced him, ironically, my job became in the hospitality field in bars and restaurants and drinking was all around me and it looked like fun and people would buy me drinks and you know, I started drinking a little more because the feelings of anxiety that I would have, I'd be getting numbed, I'd feel, Oh! I feel good.

Mimi: I feel calm. Yeah. So it grew. I went from not wanting to drink to enjoying it.

Mike: There's a saying in basketball, it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's. (laugh) Sorry, but I thought about that while reading your book. You should have just called it All the Jimmy's and Joe's. (laugh)

Mimi: Yeah, yeah, I guess you're right. But there is some evidence to support the theory that women may be attracted to partners who resemble their fathers. It's called sexual imprinting, actually. But, unfortunately, my sexual imprinting with my father was not a good one. So I was attracted to the worst men (laugh), the worst men, because I divorced him and that's when my addiction took off because for the first time in my life, I had freedom.

Mike: Yeah. I had nobody. Freedom from your thoughts.

Mimi: My thoughts, my parents, a man. Like I had no one telling me what I could and could not do. And I had a job in the Hotel Casey, which was very famous at the time, political people came and everything, and I started to enjoy drinking, and I don't know why, I was like 5'2" and 110 pounds, but I had a high tolerance for alcohol, baby.

Mimi: I mean, I could drink. (laugh)

Mike: I wonder where that came from.

Mimi: It's so funny because I was the one that they'd say, oh, let, Mimi drive. She's good. , . And I probably had eight scotches, or, you know. I never like slurred my words or staggered or any of that, you know, I would drink and then I would tell myself, okay, you're tired.

Mimi: And I would go to bed, but really I was passing out.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mimi: But to me, I was going to bed. And that went on for a long time.

Mike: You also say that you never thought of your mother as a mirror. Reflecting you'd be as an adult, but you understood that you were her mirror with a distorted vision. This is really powerful, but what was the vision, Mimi?

Mimi: The vision was that the man is the boss and there's no way to get away and that you take all his crap. And you take it. And also, you know, she wasn't very affectionate and I mean, she just, oh, my mother was, she just, I'd hug her and after a couple seconds she'd push me away.

Mimi: So the mirror was, this is the thing. Everyone is a mirror. What you see in other people is something about yourself.

Mike: Oh, that's great.

Mimi: Yeah, so that's why later on I realized, realized she was a mirror, but it was a distortion. It wasn't really who I was going to be or who I wanted to be. So that's what I meant by that quote.

Mike: Well, you know, and I laughed out loud when I was reading your book, because at one point you say that your life was full of characters from a Quentin Tarantino movie and it reads that way, by the way. So but it sure seems that way. Talk about your honeymoon night with Jerry. Cause that's right out of a Quentin Tarantino movie.

Mimi: Oh, my husband. Well, I'll tell you what I'm with him 37 years and he's my third husband. So I always tell people that means it was them not me. Cause the other two didn't make it, you know, and he's 37 years. But when we met, we were both drinkers. And we ended up buying a bar together. Oh, that was an intelligent decision to alcoholics.

Mimi: He was a teacher during the day, and I had a job, but I ended up doing the bar full time running it and everything. So then we get married and we have this wedding reception in our bar and the liquor is flowing. And I had made arrangements that after the reception, we were getting on a plane and going right to our honeymoon.

Mimi: And he was not my type of drinker. He was the face in the mashed potatoes drinker, (laugh) if you can picture, you know? And in fact, I had pictures of him in the bar when he would be out head down on the bar and people would put funny hats on him. And, you know, that's the drinker he was. So we were leaving and I said, do... not... speak... until that plane takes off because if they know you're drunk, we might not be able to board the plane.

Mimi: I said, don't you open your mouth. So he pouted, literally pouted in the airport. Got up, pouting, pouting. And we go to Disney World and get our hotel room. This is our wedding night. And of course he just zonks right out. He's out. He's out. And I said, well, this is lovely, cause I could drink and still have sex, but he couldn't, he was uh uh (hands raised)

Mimi: So I thought, well, I'll watch a pay for... the hotel had the pay per view movies, and the only thing on was Jodie Foster. And it was the movie where she gets raped. I'm like, really? (laugh)

Mike: So you spent your wedding night watching The Accused.

Mimi: Yes, yes. And that's burned into my memory. Yeah, we had a good time. But that was my husband.

Mimi: He wasn't able to drink and function. You know, he just couldn't. (chuckle)

Mike: One of the things, Mimi, I've, and you have a podcast, which is delightful. One of the things I'm sure you're saying that I've loved about these podcasts is how many wonderful and resilient people I get to meet. It's just people have endless capacity for resilience through all of this, everything you've described.

Mike: And by the way, we're hitting only a few of the highlights folks.

Mike: June of 1990. what happened?

Mimi: Are we talking about college, what are we talking about June?

Mike: Yeah.

Mimi: Well, what happened was... don't forget I was blocked from going to college and when I divorced my husband, the second husband that I have two children with who stalked me even after we were divorced, he stalked me and he didn't pay child support.

Mimi: So I was on medical assistance. I was on welfare. And the government, God bless them, would send me to college. So I got food stamps. I got money every month. I got to go to college. I got daycare. It was a miracle. So actually my first two years were from 1977 to 1979 and, he just wouldn't let up on the stalking.

Mimi: He drove on the quad, the college quad on campus with his car and tried to run me over. I mean, it was insane. So I had not a nervous breakdown, but I started having anxiety attacks. So I stopped. So after I was with Jerry and I got married to Jerry, I decided I would finish. I wanted that bachelor's degree.

Mimi: So I went back to college. And I ended up graduating then in 1990.

Mike: Unbelievable.

Mimi: I had finished the two years. Mm hmm.

Mike: Climbing up Maslow's hierarchy.

Mimi: I learned about that in college, and it made a lot of sense. And for those people that don't know, it's very simple when you explain it. It's like a pyramid, and the first rung is, when you're a human, what do you need?

Mimi: You need food and water and a roof over your head. You need safety from the elements, right? Well, I spent half my life doing that, just looking for food and security for me and my children. Right. And then it talks about how then you make contact with people and you get educated and it reached the top, which is self actualization.

Mimi: So it took me quite a while to start getting up that hierarchy. But I feel like I'm close.

Mike: Yeah. Well, let's get you closer. You have another Quentin Tarantino moment, for me, anyway, in your book. So you're still drinking at this point, you're experiencing blackouts, you get into a terrible car accident.

Mimi: Yeah.

Mike: You said out loud, as you say in the book, God, please help me. I can't take this anymore. And you walk into whose office?

Mimi: Dr. Bob.

Mike: Okay.

Mimi: And not that Dr. Bob.

Mike: No, but the guy's name is Dr. Bob, and for those of you who are recovering, you're laughing. For those of you who are not, Dr. Bob and Bill W. were two of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Mimi: Yes, they were.

Mimi: And I didn't know that. You know, of course I didn't know that. I bought this bar, and across the street was this very handsome, charming chiropractor called Dr. Bob, and everybody loved him. And he was cross addicted. He did drugs and alcohol and he was such a good chiropractor that you didn't care.

Mimi: Like he really, he had a gift. He had a gift. And he would call me on the phone while he was working and say, make me a cocktail, make me something good. And bring it over. 2 o'clock in the afternoon, he's working on patients and I bring it over. But every once in a while, he'd get really bad, really out of hand.

Mimi: And his family would send him away. His family was a very respectable family. In fact, his father was the principal at the school where my husband worked. So when I did that, I immediately got out of the car and I said, Bob, I want to go to that place you go to when you get really bad. And I really, I was into deep depression.

Mimi: I was in a deep depression. So I wasn't thinking I was an alcoholic yet. I was saying this because I thought I didn't like the blackouts. Because that means I don't have power. I don't know what's going on and I needed to have power. I needed to be in control. So they made the phone call and I was there that night and I thought I was going to a spa. (laugh)

Mike: Oh, there you go.

Mimi: And when I got there, they tell me, you're not at a spa, honey, you don't need the bathing suit, you don't need these magazines. (laugh) And I get the big question, what do I read? Dr. Bob, I thought. Yeah.

Mike: Message.

Mimi: Ironic, it's really. Really? Unbelievable. And I will tell you, unfortunately, that Dr. Bob, he never stopped.

Mimi: He almost died of an overdose. He did something called a speedball. And he ended up in a coma for weeks. When he came out of the coma, he didn't recognize his family members. But when my husband and I walked in the hospital, he knew who we were. (laugh)

Mike: amazing.

Mimi: And he lost his house, his home, his practice, and he ended up living in like a special aid home because he was brain damaged.

Mike: Well, Mimi even your recovery and your treatment was a little out of the ordinary. I think you're the only person I've ever met who got a get well soon card while in rehab from the Budweiser distributor.

Mimi: Actually, it was more than one distributor. (laugh) It was also Genesee and Ferranti Brothers, which did another one. These bouquets of flowers were coming in, huge bouquets.

Mimi: And I have to say, this treatment center was so good. They actually had movie stars that had gone there. And I can tell you one of them because it's public knowledge, not breaking anonymity. Kathleen.... Kathleen Turner.

Mike: Oh, sure.

Mimi: I actually counseled Kathleen Turner years later.

Mike: No way.

Mike: That's great.

Mimi: Gary Oldman went there. Like it was a super four star, five star place. And I came and these flowers start coming, these huge bouquets. And the other patients were like, who the hell is this chick? You know, who, who is she? And I'm trying to figure if I was a movie star or something, I don't know. (laugh)

Mimi: But yeah, and right away with my personality, of course, the gals. All got drawn to me and I was like leader of the pack with the girls. And flirting with the guys. My usual personality. (laugh)

Mike: But it stuck. How long have you been in recovery now?

Mimi: 33 years.

Mike: Oh, congratulations.

Mimi: I know, I'll have 34 in May. And I had a little altercation with a male counselor there because he saw that I was like running the place, you know, and he came over to me when I was talking to a girl that was crying and he said, what's going on?

Mimi: And I said, Oh, it's girl stuff. Like I shushed him away.

Mimi: He said, well, you might as well tell me to go fuck myself. And I was, like, horrified that he talked to me that way. So I reported him right away. (laugh) He got in trouble. So he told his friends, Oh, she won't make it a week.

Mike: Right.

Mimi: Because of my personality. So when I had a year, I made sure I went there to get my one year chip so he would see me get my one year chip.

Mike: (laugh) There you go. Was he still there?

Mimi: He was there.

Mike: That's great.

Mimi: And I walked by him and I said, I hope you didn't lose too much money on your bet.

Mike: Oh, that's great. That's great.

Mike: Even in sobriety, Mimi, there's lessons in your chapter, Magic Mountain, Disney reference. There's way too many listings of people you knew dying before old age. Not that you escaped. I think you and I are in the same boat. We can't get through an airport.

Mike: We got so many different parts on us, right?

Mimi: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Mike: But life is a challenge, but look at how you're looking at it.

Mimi: I had a book signing in Pennsylvania year after my book came out and. At a coffee shop and I had so many people come. I was so, so honored and surprised.

Mimi: And I signed their books and they said, we never knew you went through all that stuff.

Mike: Right.

Mimi: Because you always had a smile on your face and you're always a happy person. And then the people in Florida that read the book that only knew me like this, like waitresses and friends I made here. They told me, look it, we would read a couple chapters and have to put it down because we'd cry because we know you and we hated reading that stuff that happened to you. And then we turn the page and you'd make us laugh because I'd put something funny in there. (laugh)

Mimi: Yeah.

Mike: And for those of you, you got to get the book. So go ahead and do that.

Mimi: Raised by Wolves, Trapped by Demons. And see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not good at this, all the stuff up to the camera thing.

Mike: But you know, Mimi also has it's not a companion workbook, but there's a workbook that you can use along with it.

Mike: Those are, we have a lot of therapists who are listening. And for those of you who will read it, you will notice that like any good author, there's cliffhangers at the end of every chapter, so we're going to leave you one. We're going to leave you with a cliffhanger. Mimi and I are going to have a part two conversation a few weeks from now.

Mike: Turns out we have one other thing in common, Mimi.

Mimi: Yes, we do.

Mike: Both our dads are 100 percent Irish.

Mimi: That's right. And they always say nobody's 100 percent anything. Well, they're wrong. (laugh) We proved that. My father grew up thinking he was half Sicilian. It's insane. He spoke Sicilian. He spoke it. He went to Sicily.

Mimi: He met his so called relatives. I mean, it's, you'll read that in that [inaudible].

Mike: Yeah, it's great. Mimi, this has been delightful. I know we're going to talk again shortly, but thanks for your story, for your inspiration, your terrific book.

Mike: For those of you listening, watching, I hope you find strength to slay your own demons.

Mike: We all have them. As always, thanks for listening. Be safe. And whatever you do, keep moving forward.