There is No Shame Asking for Help

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Use Disorder Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Who helps the helpers when the helpers need help? And what if those helpers are in law enforcement? I'm honored to have as our guest today, Chris Prochut.

Mike: Chris is a mental health advocate and law enforcement suicide prevention trainer. He is a former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police commander who has received numerous accolades over the years for his work with mental health, including being presented with the National Association of Mental Illness Iris Award for outstanding contributions.

Mike: And just this past May, Chris received the Shattering Stigma Award from NAMI for showing that reaching out for help is a sign of strength. I'll say that again. Reaching out for help is a sign of strength and for promoting open conversations surrounding mental health within law enforcement. Welcome, Chris.

Mike: Thanks so much for doing this.

Chris: What an honor to be here. Thank you so much, Mike, for inviting me.

Mike: Well, Chris, I've always learned that the story is the most important part, and you got a pretty remarkable one. So why don't we start, and we'll wander. In 2007, and let's go from there.

Chris: Sure. 2007, the biggest crisis of my life were probably the police department in Bolingbrook, Illinois, hit when the wife of Sergeant Drew Peterson went missing.

Chris: Stacey Peterson, even today, has not yet been found. And when that case occurred, I was the press information officer, which means I handle the press relations or do the interviews, write the press reports. And you can imagine, and I'm sure your viewers have seen, when the media descends, well, like on Kenosha, right?

Mike: Yes.

Chris: For these huge incidents, it makes news not only, you know, in Milwaukee, but nationally, internationally. And the Peterson case was something that I thought that I could control. Now, looking back, I see that that was an insurmountable goal. But at the time I was like, okay, I've gone to all the training courses.

Chris: I can handle the press. And I thought that it was my job to protect the department, my family, from the onslaught of the media. And you have to understand, the media wasn't just there for two nights, the media was there for about six months. And even after I left the department there was a lot of interest because of, well, Drew's career as an officer and his third wife died accidentally in a dry bathtub and now his fourth wife goes missing and is presumed, you know dead. And he's the suspect. So you can just imagine, oh, this is, this is big news. I remember being out in front of Drew Peterson's house and I asked the media, are you ever going to leave? And they said, well, unless California falls into the ocean.

Chris: Probably not. This is the biggest story right now. As you can imagine, Mike, it took a toll on me and my family. This was the call that never ended.

Chris: So I was working 12, 14 hour days every day. I would get calls on the weekends. And by Christmas time, which was Stacey went missing in October of 2007. So only two months.

Chris: There was a marked change in me. I wasn't sleeping. I was having outbursts at home, outbursts at work. I felt pent up with anger and that translated over into not being a a good father or a good husband. Christmas was terrible. Seeing the emotion of joy in other people aggravated me because I couldn't feel that joy.

Chris: In February, my wife said, Chris, I want you to go get some help. Go and talk to a counselor. And I, you know, being the male, what good is talking about it going to do, right? I can fix the problems, especially in law enforcement. You're called to problem solve every day. What do you mean I can't... control my moods and my thoughts or help myself.

Chris: So I'll stop there in case you have anything else because I could go on.

Mike: That's a great place to stop because you just said it as a guy, right? We've heard that forever. And I can't imagine a more suck it up profession than law enforcement, right? So you couldn't have been getting at that point other than from your wife a lot of messages that said go talk about it and get help, right?

Mike: And so where do you go? And if you go to help, do you just go for your wife and then just play the game?

Chris: Oh, Michael, you nailed it on the head. I had placed my angst on the family, and here's why. When I went to work, and I find this in most first responders, they get charged up at work.

Chris: Work is fun. It's energetic. It's an adrenaline dump. And then you naturally come home and you have to come down. Well, when I would come down to my baseline, my normal, I didn't like that. So I put it on my family. It must be my family because I'm around them when I'm coming down. They're the problem. So to get Jenny off my back, like, like you stated, Oh, sure.

Chris: I'll go for you, Jen. How about this? A birthday gift for you. Her birthday was in February. So I went and found a counselor and boy, I let the counselor have it. My counselor's name was Ben. And for 50 out of the 55 minutes of that session, I told him, you can't help me. You don't know what a cop's life is like.

Chris: You don't know what I've been through. And, What good is talking about it going to do? And he came up with the perfect ending line at the end of our session. He said, Chris, I don't know why you're so angry. I just want to help you get some relief. And I thought to myself, dang, this guy is really good because that is what I needed at the time.

Chris: People ask me all the time, what do you do for a person in crisis? Sometimes you just have to sit down, shut your mouth and listen to them. And that is exactly what the counselor did. And I got everything out and it felt so good, which to me was foreign. What do you mean? I want to talk about internal problems that, you know, I, that bring me shame.

Chris: I don't want you to know this about me, but you know what? Here you go there. It's all out. And it was, it was exhausting, but it was so helpful.

Mike: Did you go back?

Chris: Oh, for two and a half years, I went back. (laugh) Yes. Matter of fact, that the first the first couple of weeks I was in his office twice a week, and I was using the tools that I couldn't see, right?

Chris: I'm not a counselor myself, but I really think that it is the blinders are on. You can only see what you know. And the counselor just says, Hey, take a step with me to the right and look at it from this angle. And you're like, Oh, that makes so much sense. How come I couldn't see it? It's because you can't solve your mental health problems by yourself.

Chris: Stop trying to do that. You have to, I'll use in law enforcement, you have to call for a backup, your partner, your spouse, somebody else.

Mike: So, put you on meds because you were dealing with depression, I would imagine?

Chris: Yes. So I was diagnosed with a generalized anxiety disorder and they thought some form of depression.

Chris: So I did go on an antidepressant for 30 days. And then I was done. You know, I don't like to joke about this, but it, you know, you see all those side effects on medications and boy, I had some pretty interesting ones. One of them where I would see floaters when I would talk to you, like little amoebas in my vision. I just felt worse.

Chris: And then kind of that guy ego kicked in again, like, You have to rely on this pill in order to feel better. Come on, Chris, you're better than that. So I did, and I fortunately flushed my meds down the toilet, and that is when I made the plan to end my pain on my own accord, in silence.

Chris: In my mind, I tried therapy. That didn't work. I tried meds. Well, only one, and that didn't work. So I gave it a shot, and now we're going to go down the road of ending my pain. So it was after I flushed my meds, I had made my death date set in my plan.

Mike: And I would imagine it included a gun.

Chris: It did. Most males, when they end their life, they use a more lethal means than females.

Chris: So it was, would have been with my service weapon. As a commander, I had the keys to all the records and the crime scene photos at our department. I was studying to make sure that I did this correctly. I wanted to end my pain. I didn't want to cause more pain. And you know, I look back and I go, how was I that depressed or everything was that dark?

Chris: I had just had our second child, we had a daughter, you know, I'm a commander at the police department, you know, looking for gratitude is so important, but I was in such a dark place. I couldn't see that. And I felt better developing the plan that my pain was going to end. For your listeners, it's a very big red flag.

Chris: If you know that somebody's going through something and all of a sudden you see like this rapid enlightening, maybe the counseling's working, maybe the meds are working, or maybe the plan has been made. Mike, there was a bounce in my step that week when I had it all figured out. Obviously I didn't tell anybody, but it's like I was making preparations, cleaning out my office.

Chris: After May, it was going to be May 1st. After May 1st, the calendar was clear, and I was going to be free of this pain, and in my mind's eye, I thought my family would be better off without me because I wasn't bringing the anger back to them. Things would probably, again, be better off without me, and they would probably benefit financially from my loss too.

Mike: And you thought you were fooling them that they didn't know ?

Chris: (laugh, I laugh because I really did. I truly believed that I was fooling everyone. Now, fast forward to many years later, people come up to me and they're like, Chris, we knew there was a change in you. We knew that you were going through something.

Chris: I thought I was fooling my wife and all my friends in the end. I wasn't, I was fooling myself. And my behavior came to a head on April 17th, when I stated to my wife accidentally that I have a will and that tumbled dominoes. She figured everything out from what she had seen in the previous months.

Chris: I went to sleep. I don't know how Mike, I hadn't slept in months. Higher power put me to sleep for two hours. And during that time she made the plan. She made the call to my doctor, my department, and they came in and got me essentially. I woke up to a SWAT team in my bedroom. I can laugh about that now.

Chris: I wasn't really happy back then. (laugh)

Mike: They couldn't have, were they all geared out?

Chris: Yes, they were. They, and there were a lot of them. There was an inner perimeter set up around my house. Yeah. The whole nine yards. Because think about it. The worst call that you could have for a police department is one of their own officers in crisis that knows all the tactics and techniques because they've probably been on the other side of it when they're trying to help somebody out, you know, Joe Citizen.

Chris: So they know, I know what they know.

Chris: I slept.

Mike: I was going to say, but you only slept two hours, Chris.

Chris: Yeah.

Mike: So from the time Jenny called, to them, you waking up with the armada at your bedside was two hours. That's really quick response.

Chris: So we lived in the town, obviously that, you know, I was a commander in Jenny made the call and by the time she got to the police department, which probably would have been about a 10 minute drive they were already preparations.

Mike: Wow.

Chris: So, you know, I share my story without animosity towards my old department. They saved my life that night, Mike, you know. And they are there and I'm pleading with them, please don't take me because if I do, I'm going to lose my job, which is my identity. That's who I am. And I was putting my running shoes on and I actually wanted to run out the front door.

Chris: And of course they caught on that to that too. I thought I was fooling them to like that's not going to go well for you, Chris. Oh, darn it. So, you know, even at the moment where I am. I'm surrounded by help. I didn't want help. I felt that I was a burden to people. And I think that's part of the reason people don't get the help that they need.

Chris: They're afraid of that stigma. I was afraid of being seen as weak. I was going to lose my career. What are my friends going to think? You know, I'm putting this burden on you when I'm thinking I'm trying to free you of it. And I think that's why we suffer in silence. Men in general don't talk anyway.

Chris: I really believe that's why females die less by suicide, because they have those emotional bonds and they share their feelings. And I laugh with my fellow officers. Yes, you guys have feelings too. Cause the last time I checked, you're all human.

Mike: So you went somewhere then.

Chris: Yeah. So I went to a hospital, which is in a neighboring town.

Chris: It was a mental health hospital. And I was admitted and there was something that I want to take away and share with your listeners. It's very important for law enforcement or any first responder to go to the best hospital. I'm not saying that my hospital wasn't the best, but when I was admitted, they, they said, Chris, we'd appreciate it if you don't tell anybody that you're a police officer, you have to understand it's for your own you know, safety because the majority of people that were brought here were brought here against their will by the police. So at all costs, if you can go somewhere else, somewhere where your first responders don't take the public that would be beneficial.

Chris: And I spent 15 days there. Lots of changes of medication, lots of counseling that happened. And then afterwards I was released with a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. My only interaction with somebody with bipolar was to respond to their house to help them during their crisis. Not that I would be diagnosed with that same thing.

Chris: And I knew the stigma attached with bipolar or schizophrenia, right? The media really makes those Illness is scary. You always hear there's a shootout or, you know, school shooting, then 24 to 48 hours, you hear later, Oh, subject, you know, had bipolar, they were off their meds. And now I'm kind of labeled that, that same way. In an actuality, individuals with a mental illness are more likely to be the victim of a crime.

Mike: How long before you felt like you were back on your mental feet?

Chris: It was definitely more than two weeks. It was probably a good six months. Because when I got out of the hospital, you know, you have to wait till the meds, are we on the right meds now? The counseling and then the counseling now about that night too.

Chris: Like we've just compiled this, right? I'm going through. And now my job is in jeopardy because I was suspended when I was released from the hospital and they had taken my badge. They take my gun. They basically locked me out of the police department. And I was like, what did I do? That's my family. I actually started at the police department since age 16.

Chris: So that's really all that I knew. And now my support system is gone. I went for a disability pension and that was denied for time's sake. And then ultimately I had to resign on May 1st, 2009. So I lost my job. I think everybody lost their job between 2008, 2010. It seems like bankruptcy was the thing to do.

Chris: So I was jumping on the bandwagon. I do use a lot of humor, even in my presentations, and I'll use it here when I look back, you know, because if you really start to think about those, those were dark times.

Mike: Well, when I knew that you lost your job, the question immediately comes up, right?

Mike: And you must deal with this in your presentations. Isn't that a huge fear? I mean, you're encouraging people to speak out. And the number one fear is, if I do, I could lose everything.

Chris: I love how you put that, Mike. So I don't tell individuals in my presentation for the first hour that I'm a police officer, but I do tell them at the end, we're going to leave here with hope, with inspiration and with tools to help you.

Chris: And then the second part of my presentation, I show a video and they do see exactly what you said. I lost my job, my career, put my family in turmoil, short sale my house, bankruptcy was filed all because I went to get help. So what gives Chris? That's not very inspiring. Of course, I'm not going to tell you!

Chris: They missed the whole point if they're thinking like that. The point is that I am still here and that is all that matters. My kids still have their dad and I'm still married happily for 26 years with my wife. So if you want to save your job, then save your health and get help early and often. Don't let it surmount to the point where I had to go to the hospital.

Chris: Because if I would have gotten help early, when I started to feel things, right, none of this would have happened. I would have gone with a life coach or a counselor. And my counselor told me, Chris, you need to be more childlike. And I was like, what does that mean? More childlike?

Chris: He said, you know, when a child falls and they bruise their knee, they immediately, without thought, call for mom or dad, they call for help and they address the situation right then and there. They don't just walk it off, right? Suck it up, throw some dirt on it, right? Get help early and often. And that's what kids do.

Chris: And I don't know when we lost that ability to ask for help. Because we're so concerned about what other people think or all the bad things that can happen. And more and more officers are coming out going, yep, I was in the hospital or I had, I was right there with yours. I know what suicidal ideation feels like, but I went, got help and I was supported by my department.

Chris: It didn't affect my career and I am thriving, not just surviving, but thriving in my career. Matter of fact, I just got promoted. Now, when I hear that, I am absolutely so joyful for them, but I go home and I go, how come I wasn't afforded that? That wasn't my plan. That wasn't what I'm supposed to be doing.

Chris: So practicing that gratitude of, I need to be where my feet are. You're possibly saving more lives now than you could have ever done on the street Chris.

Mike: Wow.

Chris: And I didn't figure that out for myself. It was an officer in class that had a comment and he raised his hand and he told me that, and it was like a light bulb moment.

Chris: Oh my gosh. It makes all of that stuff I went through worth it. And people say, well, you look, you look great. You look fine. I'm like, well, I've been through hell, but I wear it. Well, (laugh) right. This is not just, I decided one day, you know, this is what I'm going to do. My life took a hard left. And it was very difficult for many years, but we're on the other side of it, and circumstances can change.

Chris: And that's why you need to hold on, right?

Mike: Speaking of being childlike, when you're trying to get back on your feet and find something else to do, I think your son gave you a job, didn't he?

Chris: He absolutely did. I remember, I alluded to everybody who was out of a job. Trying to find one was so difficult. So I said, you know what, I'll ask Chase.

Chris: He was six at the time. He's my, my oldest son. And he was eating his Eggo waffles. You know how kids eat without a fork? Just sticky hands and all. And he said, Dad, You should be a corndog seller. That's the best piece of advice I could have ever gotten because he, he puts it into perspective, right? I don't care if you're the chief or you're the commander or what you do for a job.

Chris: You are my dad. That's your job. That's your role, right? And so it's so difficult. Put that badge down, your mom's, dad's, aunt's, uncle's, you know, that's who you are first. You just happen to work at a law enforcement facility and think about it. We're all going to lose our jobs one day. When we retire, right?

Chris: They'll put the first responder badge up on the fireplace. And now what do you do? Well, hopefully you've invested time in your kids and your family and things outside of the job, because that's really what's going to get you through the rest of your life. Having an outlet.

Mike: And I looked, I tried to look this up and you probably know this, I should have just asked you different law enforcement agencies must have different rules for all of this because there isn't one central, if you do this, then you lose your job.

Mike: So different ones approach this in a different way. Is that part of your reason for doing Talk to End Stigma, your company?

Chris: Yes, it is. So in Illinois at the time that I was an officer, there was a state law that stated if you went inpatient to a mental health facility, you would lose what's called a FOI card, a Firearm Owner Identification card.

Chris: And I knew that, that if I went to go get help and it was that bad that I was going to be taken to the hospital, that law would have kicked in. It has since changed, I think it was about five or six years ago they changed that law. And Illinois was the only state in the nation that had a law like that.

Chris: But to your point, there could be different policies. One of them that I mentioned in my presentation is a medication policy. There are departments throughout the country, including here in Wisconsin that state, if an officer goes on any prescription medication, that they have to do a memo to their chief or their sheriff advising of such.

Chris: I won't take an opinion one way or the other, but I could definitely see that as a barrier. Right? I'm going through something. They put me on an antidepressant. And now I have to do a memo and out myself to my agency. If you have a culture of care, it might be okay, but if you don't, that might be a way for them to go, Oh, he's a liability.

Chris: Let's do what we can to get rid of them or suspend them, right? I think any prescription medication, well, it's because you might, you know, not be able to operate a car. Mike, if I take a Benadryl, I probably shouldn't be driving a car, right? It knocks me out. So I just want departments to see that. Put yourself in the shoes of that officer who's going through enough and then has to literally tell the world I'm going through this. I've got mental health and who knows what other people think about mental health too. Some might get it right. Everybody probably has mental health challenges, but then there's others who aren't educated enough and they think it's scary.

Chris: Oh my gosh, my backup has depression. So what? And they're getting better in law enforcement where they are. We've all heard the term. It's okay not to be okay. We've heard that. I'd like to add that it's not okay to stay that way though. Right? Admit it, but then follow up with, okay, so what are you doing about it? Right?

Chris: Because that is not a way to live. And I also want the best officer responding in the best mental condition if I had an emergency at my house. And if that officer needs to be on medication so that he's in his peak performance, so be it. The liability sits on the officers who are not getting the help that they need because of what they believe about the organization or the culture at the organization where, yeah, I'm not so sure if it's okay not to be okay. So I'm trying to change that.

Mike: I looked at your website, Talk to End Stigma, and we'll put a link at the end of the podcast for it. And I looked at your training schedule, and Chris, I thought I was busy.

Mike: (laugh) It is your training schedule for different departments and first responder agents. It's packed. So how are you received when you talk about, I've done presentations to similar groups in the Department of Corrections. That's, that's not an easy crowd.

Chris: No, they are a tough nut to crack. Let me tell you.

Chris: I think it was about 52 to 54 presentations just last year alone. Over the past 12 years, I've had 16,000 law enforcement first responders that I've had the pleasure to talk to from California to New York, Florida, all the way up into Canada. And I still hold a regular full time job as well.

Chris: The company that I work for, they're very supportive. I burn a lot of vacation time. But it's therapeutic to me to go into a classroom of my peers. I've been in those seats and I know what they're thinking. Oh, we're going to talk about suicide prevention. This is going to be so dry, right?

Chris: This isn't like firearms training or how we train to arrest people. And I don't tell them I'm a police officer. So I want them to sit there because they're just generally cynical. They're always thinking, what's about this guy? And then when they do figure it out, it's like instant credibility.

Chris: Oh my gosh, he's one of us. Mike, people cry in my presentation every time there are hugs afterwards. And the best one on one conversations happen in the parking lot, in the bathroom, and on the way to my car.

Mike: Yep. I was going to ask you about that. I was just going to say, how many stories have you heard? Hey, do you have a minute?

Chris: (laugh) Yes. And it turns into about a half an hour. Yes. And, and we do, I recognize that I give a disclaimer at the very beginning that, Hey, look, I'm certain that you know someone who has taken their own life, or I don't know where you are in a grief process or what's going on. If you need, someone's called it a tap out room.

Chris: If you need a tap out room, like I've heard too much and you need to take a walk, we will send somebody with you. And then I do, my presentations don't end when I say, thank you very much, turn in your evaluations. They end when I finally get into the car, which is usually 45 minutes after the presentation, because I've stirred emotions up and they want to talk and I'm not going to deny them that.

Chris: And again, I tell them, look, I'm not a counselor, but I've got a heck of an ear and a heck of a support group. And then I hear, Mike, this is the blessing. I will get emails. That because of your story, I'm still here. Or I went to get help. Or, Chris, this is the ninth time I've seen your presentation. And I almost like to tell them, take the two hours off.

Chris: And they're like, no, I'm in a different life stage every time I see you. And it hits different. Because I'm like, the story hasn't changed, right? And to meet those friends, and I've made so many friends across this country by doing what I'm doing, by having the courage to share my own story, and each one of your listeners has their own story, and don't be ashamed of it, and don't get in the story Olympics either.

Chris: Well, mine's not as good as Chris's, and not as good as Dave's, so I'll just be quiet. No. Mm mm. You don't know who you can save, who you can inspire, or who you can just help get through the day.

Mike: You know, Chris, mental health is not easy to maintain when your job and life is full of stress and for lack of a better word, trauma.

Mike: And that describes law enforcement to a T every minute, almost.

Chris: They are always operating, you know, if you think of a stoplight, they're always operating in yellow. They're always cautious of what's going on. You and I on vacation, we're in green, right? There's no threats. There's palm trees and fun.

Chris: They're always looking out for what, you know, what can hurt me or what's that next call. And there has to be a balance between, you know, there are good people in the world and there are people that need our help. And then there's those bad actors out there. Mine gets blurred. It can really give them a negative perception of the world.

Chris: So the resources for police are these peer support other officers who have been trained in what to look for, the counselors like you had on last month Felicia Labatore from Kenosha. I mean, she is amazing. And of course she's shared her own story on how she's been there. And then vetted counselors who are specially trained, or some of them who have even retired from law enforcement or the fire service and are now counselors.

Chris: How amazing is that? Because the biggest challenge is, well, you're not a police officer. You're, you don't understand. And now you have a police officer who is your counselor. Okay. We can put that aside now. Let's give you the tools. Let's give you the different perspectives, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, talk therapy.

Chris: I think we need to get over that you need to be sick in order to see a therapist. I'd rather you see a therapist before you actually need it. And a lot of departments are now doing annual wellness check ins that they have to go see a counselor for an hour every year, regardless if they need it or not, to put that name on the face.

Chris: And I've heard nothing but amazing things. In Canada, they call it a neck up checkup.

Mike: (laugh) I don't think I've heard that, that is great.

Chris: It's amazing. It's a neck up checkup. And think about it. Every six months you go to the dentist and you get the stuff cleaned out of your teeth, right? Okay. Let's go every year and get the stuff cleaned out of our heads.

Chris: So I think the number one thing, and I don't have the answer on what can help each individual person with their trauma, but I can tell you, you can't do it by yourself. You've got to pull somebody aside. And also, there are a lot of people that are suffering. You're not the only one, like I thought, right?

Chris: I tried to solve my own problems, so it must be unsolvable. No, Chris, just stop. Right. And it's difficult. You have type A personalities who always have to have the answer. They always have to be in charge, armor down and say, I don't know the answer to this one. Right. That's tough. That's tough.

Mike: I like that.

Mike: Well, okay, and I'll let you out with this. We see a lot of people in the public, you know, we're talking about dealing with emotion, right? A lot of people in the public eye who are still criticizing people in authoritative positions, men in particular, for expressing emotion. It just happened at a very public level last week, where, you know, vice presidential candidate Walz's son was expressing emotion and some criticized him for that.

Mike: Called him names because of that. So we've come a ways, but we got a ways to go. That's, I guess, the giveaway.

Chris: That is. It's a ways to go. And, you know, I look at it and it's, it's not, it's actually the people who are typing out the terrible comments. It's their problem.

Chris: It's their problem. They're projecting their beliefs onto this individual who felt comfortable enough to show those emotions.

Chris: And I think maybe if we did share many more emotions, we might maybe lessen the angst and the suck it up attitude to see an officer cry. And I've seen plenty of them, but they won't show that emotion because again, fear of what's the public going to think of me. I'd like your listeners to go to the Wausau Police Department Facebook page, where they put their officers talking about the trauma that they felt, and they cry on camera.

Chris: These are detectives and patrolmen who volunteer their stories. You should see the comments underneath from the community going, thank you for expressing your emotions. Thank you for getting the help that you need. Right? Just the opposite of what people think that I'm weak if I show emotion. No, just the opposite.

Chris: So, I think what we saw there with the political candidate's son, I hope that is just a tenth of one percent of what rest of America believes about their heroes.

Mike: I think it is. I mean, in my presentations, people support people who are trying to deal with stuff all the time.

Chris: Ya, right, empathy. Yeah.

Mike: Chris you know, boy, I could talk to you for hours.

Mike: I appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. We'll chat again. I know.

Chris: I look forward to that. Yes, I do.

Mike: And for those of you who are listening Chris's website, Talk to End Stigma, and how to contact him is at the end of the podcast.

Mike: We encourage you to listen whenever you can. And until we talk to you next time, stay safe and be strong.

Mike: And by be strong, it means be open.