Turning Tragedy into Hope

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Dr. Brian Hoeflinger is by profession a neurosurgeon. He is first and foremost a husband and a father who experienced unthinkable loss. He is the author of The Night He Died, A Harsh Reality of Teenage Drinking, A Neurosurgeon and Father's Personal Journey into Turning Tragedy into Hope. He joins us today to talk about that loss and the commitment he and his family have made to make sure that no other family has to experience that tragedy.

Mike: Welcome, Brian.

Brian: Thanks for having me, Mike. It's a pleasure.

Mike: Yeah, I appreciate you doing this. You know, Brian, when we first chatted, you actually requested that we record this today, which is February 1st.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I thought it might have a little more impact because February 1st my son died tonight. Tonight's the night he went out drinking with his friends.

Brian: It was a Friday night, so tonight's Thursday night, but it's the, it's the first. And he went out to a party after a basketball game You know, earlier that evening I had asked if he wanted to work out in the late afternoon, I had gotten home late from work and he said he had plans. And so what they were doing is they went to a liquor store, him and two friends who are all under age 18 or less.

Brian: And, and they went and bought this huge bottle of Belvedere vodka. And then they went to a party after the game and everybody brings their own liquor apparently. And, you know, we were just learning this as parents. We didn't know much about it, but. You know, somehow he had been drinking and they all put their keys in a basket, but somehow he got his keys, left the party late at night around 11:30, midnight we think it was.

Brian: And he drove a mile from our house and hit a tree head on at high speed. And you know, Cindy and I, I was on call for trauma that night for Toledo Hospital and St. Anne's Hospital. So we cover like four or five hospitals in town when we're on trauma call. So I was the neurosurgeon on call for trauma.

Brian: And, you know, we got a phone call like at 12:30 in the morning that your son's been in a car accident from one of the Brian's friend's mother's. And we had no idea what she was talking about. But she said, I think Brian went to St. Anne's Hospital. So everybody knows me as St. Anne's ER. So I called the ER.

Brian: I said, this is Dr. Hefflinger. You know, can you tell me what happened to my son? And I just thought he broke his leg or something. You know, I who knew and there's this big long pause and no one will talk to me. And I said, come on, this is Brian. This is Dr. Hefflinger. Can you tell me is my son there? And there's this pause.

Brian: And then they said that you need to go to Toledo hospital. And the minute I heard that, I mean, I knew it was a life threatening injury because they transfer him to a level one trauma center that I cover too. So that's when your heart sinks, you know, and, and, my hands were shaking and quivering. I can hardly hold the phone.

Brian: And I called the Toledo hospital and I said, this is Dr. Hoeflinger, can you tell me what's happened to my son? And it's one of those things that they wouldn't tell me that there's just this pause and I got a little mad.

Brian: I said, for God's sake you know, this is Dr. Hoeflinger can you tell me what's happened to my son? And they said, you just need to come to the hospital. So I, I turned to my wife and I said, yeah, I said, Cindy, he's he's either severely injured or he's dead. And you know, we got in my car and drove to the hospital.

Brian: It was a cold night in my Jeep. We were driving in and we were talking and, and we just were praying, you know, we were talking and praying that Brian was dead and not maimed, you know, cause I have a brother who was in a bad car accident who had a horrible life after having a bad head injury. And, you know, we were just praying that Brian was dead.

Brian: And when we got there Dr. Judd, the trauma surgeon who we're friends with, you know, we got out of the car and he gave Cindy a hug and he said Brian was dead. But that's what's special about today. Cause it's the night, it's the night Brian died. And it's something that always sticks in your mind and it never goes away and it's gotten better, but we always, you know, do something special.

Brian: And I, I don't know as a family, we'll probably go out to dinner and then. I always take tomorrow off for 11 years. I always take the following day off, you know, February 2nd.

Mike: Did you have any indication that he was drinking?

Brian: You know, we, we were naive as can be. I mean, I thought maybe when they went out, maybe they were drinking beer like we did when we were younger, but I, we really honestly had no idea they were out, you know, drinking vodka and stuff like that, I mean, I didn't know what kids did anymore, cause I guess I was out of touch and my wife was out of touch.

Brian: And so. You know, we learned a lot after he died. A lot of kids came to us almost like we were at a confessional and kids would tell us about all kinds of stuff that goes on out there and it's just, it was such an eye opening to what really goes on out there, but at the time we didn't know it.

Mike: Well, and you know, you talk about this on your videos and in your book, he didn't give you any social indications.

Mike: He was what every parent would want, right?

Brian: Yeah, I mean, he's a good kid. I mean, all kids are good. I mean, he was, he was smart, had, you know, straight A's, 4.5 GPA or something, and he was a scratch golfer, and just a nice kid, very respectful of people. But I learned through this whole process, even going through it with the kids afterwards, after Brian died, our own kids, you know, they, they started drinking in high school, along with everybody else, and the kids won't tell you.

Brian: I mean, you think your kids are going to tell you, and they don't, and I've, I've learned that firsthand with my own kids lying to me, even after Brian died. And you know, there are parents out there who say, Well, my, you know, my, I know Brian died, and I feel really bad about that, but I know my kid doesn't drink, you know. And there's just no way, they have too much to lose, and then my kids will come home from a party and say, yeah, he was the one drinking the most.

Brian: I mean, parents have to realize that the kids are going to try to not tell them in any way, shape, or form they can that they're out there drinking, you know.

Mike: Yeah, how did you handle, you know, that's an interesting you know, when you're next to next in line or drink that had to make for an interesting conversation.

Brian: What do you mean with my next kid?

Mike: Yeah.

Brian: Yeah. Well, (chuckle) he was pretty devious, but they had all kinds of things they do to hide it. And they just, they'll say it to their face, you know, I'm not out there doing it and they're doing it because they don't want you to know it. And you know, we were hard on Kevin.

Brian: We did a lot of things. I mean, we went overboard probably cause Brian died. You know, we would check him every once in a while, check his urine. And what they would do is get one of their friend's urine, drop it off of the mailbox, warm it up, and then he'd go in the bathroom and use that urine. So there's all kind of little tricks we learned as we went along the way that they would do.

Brian: But I mean, in the end, our kids are growing now, you know, and Kevin's an adult and out of college, and Julie's in London, and she's out of college, and Kirstie's in college. But I think as you grow up, I mean, I think you grow out of it a little bit. So it's, some of it I've come to terms with. We thought we were going to stop drinking underage drinking you know, that's what my wife were delusional that we could stop underage drinking. And I realized there's no real way to stop it. But you can certainly educate people. There's no reason that people can't learn from Brian's mistakes and what he did and and learn from that and that's all we've been trying to do.

Brian: I don't pretend we're gonna stop everybody out there from doing this It's just you know.

Mike: You know, when I was reading the book, one of the passages I had to put down because I couldn't get through it, it happens relatively early. You made the decision to take your three younger kids to the, to the hospital.

Brian: Yeah, that was a tough you know, we, when we went to the hospital, we had a babysitter come over with the girls and got Kevin home from a neighbor's house or a friend's house he was at. And, you know, I sat there, I remember exactly where I was in the house when I told him that Brian was dead. And that was just a horrible scene because they believed me, but they didn't believe me and there was a lot of emotion and screaming and then, you know, we said, would you guys want to go to the hospital and see Brian and they, they immediately all three of them said that we want to go see him. And when they went there, I mean, I just remember like Julie went up and touched Brian.

Brian: I think she was just feeling his hair and trying to make sure he was real, you know, make sure he was dead. Christie was kind of squeamish about going up and touching him. Kevin just stood at the door, you know, just didn't wanna go near him. But I think for them, I think it made the difference to solidify in their minds that, you know, Brian was dead and this was real.

Brian: And, and I think it's a bad thing to have in your mind, seared in your mind the rest of your life. But I think it's, I think it helped them move on in some respects, I guess. I don't know.

Mike: How did you, I, I don't even know if there's an answer for this. How do you balance handling your own grief with taking care of your children at the same time?

Brian: You know in the early days of all this It's really hard because I mean it's you I don't know how to describe it and anybody has been through it will know but it's you feel very isolated and alone and that first month I mean we were all on our own like we go to our own spaces. Didn't interact a lot.

Brian: We did interact but we didn't you know, everybody was just alone and I know I mean, you feel like killing yourself. I mean, Cindy and I definitely thought that we would want to kill ourselves. I think my wife probably had a plan because she was really bad. But, you know, you just have to get grips that life goes on and I think, you know, obviously Brian wouldn't want us to be like that and then I decided early on that I'm not going to just let my son die and just bury him and say that's it and move on.

Brian: So, you get a purpose in your life, right? So, I think we got a purpose and we wanted to educate people about, you know, underage drinking and drinking and driving. And I think everybody deals with grief their own way. I mean, I went back to work in two weeks and my wife couldn't do anything for, you know, six months.

Brian: I mean, everybody's different. And so I don't know how to answer that question other than. I think you have to try to, we told our kids, you know, what we're going to do about with Brian is going to put him on a pedestal and you guys are going to see a lot of him in the news and things like that. It doesn't mean that we don't love you.

Brian: So I think the best thing you can do is reassure your kids that you love him. And keep reminding of that because it's a horrible thing. Everyone's going through and you can't lose sight of their grief, right? You're so caught up in your own grief that you forget about they're going through the same thing or even worse in their mind, you know, and so I had to keep reminding myself of that. Because everybody, you know, it's poor me, poor me, and you forget about everybody else is going through the same thing, you know.

Mike: Including his, I'm sure Brian's friends as well, right?

Brian: Yeah, I mean, it was really on his true close friends. It was very hard on them. And this is something too, where you can really find out who your real friends are, eventually (chuckle), and who they aren't through this whole experience too.

Mike: Yeah. You wrote a letter to his graduating class.

Brian: Yeah, it was, it's a letter.

Brian: It was an inspirational letter. I mean, it told a little bit about Brian's life who he was. And then I talked about just challenging kids that, you know, to learn from Brian's mistake. And to try to be a leader and make it cool not to drink and don't drink and drive. And that letter, I, the first year we put it out it went around the world, but maybe, you know, I don't, it was on Facebook.

Brian: That's a long time ago. Facebook was really in. And that letter. Eventually after a couple of years went, you know, like 20 million people, 25 million people, had seen it and we got on the Katie Couric show and things like that. And then things settled down and then I got big on social media here lately.

Brian: And so that letter went out again, and it'll go out this year, and that's really a lot of people, it's a way to get out there and have a lot of people read it, but. What's interesting about that letter is the effect it had on parents. It was mostly parents reading it, and I remember we'd get messages like somebody who cuts hair, everybody that came in for prom, before she cut their hair, she would read that letter.

Mike: Oh wow!

Brian: The fire department were putting out the letter. I mean, so many parents contact and say, thank you so much for the letter. It's really made a difference. And all these parents saying we were reading this letter to our kids before they go out for the night to prom or out on a weekend. And it still goes on today. I mean, it's, there's something about Brian and that letter that's really made a difference, but a lot of parents use it every year to talk to their kids around prom and graduation to remind them that here's a kid just like you, who is real and had a great life.

Brian: And look what happened to him. So why don't you guys. You know, think about Brian. I get so many kids who will text us and email us that, you know, thinking of Brian tonight or I was going to drink more tonight, but I stopped because I remember your son who died or. You know, I made all my friends take an Uber because I remember your son died from a drunk driving accident. So it's definitely made a difference out there and I'll bet you over the years it saved at least one life somebody changed their mind and something bad didn't happen because of that. That's all you can hope for.

Mike: Yeah, and your contact information which we'll put at the back of this podcast is Brian Matters, that's the website, right?

Brian: Yeah.

Mike: BrianMatters.Com.

Brian: Yeah. It's a website we started and we haven't done, you know, it's, it's not as robust as it used to be, but it's a website there that has all the, all our articles and stuff that we've done.

Mike: Well, on your social media, you have a you have a really big social media presence and not all of it deals with this topic. You have, it's real diverse, one of the ones I wanted to ask you about that I was super intrigued about was you did a video about how easy it is to get intoxicated.

Mike: You chose to get intoxicated on film.

Brian: Yeah, that was kind of a risky move, but I was trying to show people, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know what would happen, but I, so many people think they can just have, you know, a couple of drinks and then they're fine. You know, I mean, how many people go out to restaurants and you know, they're drunk, but they drive home or they're out at a country club or wherever I'm just saying, and, you know, adults set the precedence.

Brian: There's no doubt about it. So I'm not. You know, I'm not saying I don't go out and have a few drinks here or there too, but I wanted to see like how much does it take me to get drunk to the point if I was out having wine at a restaurant for a couple hours, should I be driving? And I was shocked too. I mean, cause after four drinks, just five ounce glasses of wine, normal wine one glass per half an hour, which you could easily do at a restaurant.

Brian: I mean, I was, I was still under the legal limit for driving, but I was drunk and you know, I was drunk. You could tell. I mean, I could tell by watching me. I was, I was buzzed after the second drink.

Mike: I was going to say that after the second drink, I was saying to myself, I don't want to get in a car with that guy.

Brian: (chuckle) And so it just shows you that, I mean, we fool ourselves when we go out and kids go out and adults go out and we drink and then we get in our car. Cause we all feel like we can do it, right? It's that's what alcohol does. It makes you feel like you can do things that you shouldn't be doing. So that's what that video was about.

Brian: And actually I had good responses to that video. There's always a few people say, what's this guy doing? You know, promoting getting drunk, but it was, I did it for a reason. And I think it was for a good reason.

Mike: Well, I want to elaborate on that a little bit because after the second drink you know, you had a breathalyzer.

Mike: So you had your own breathalyzer. And I think after the second drink, you were something like .04, right?

Brian: Yeah. It wasn't, I wasn't much at all, really.

Mike: So half the legal limit to drive and you could already tell, yeah, shouldn't be behind the wheel, but you could have been.

Brian: And I think a lot of people, it depends obviously, because a lot of people comment, yeah, of course it depends on your your sex and your age and your weight and your body composition and, you know, a lot of medical things. But it's just a general format, you know, and. I mean, most people I think after have a drink, most people feel something that don't you? I mean, I do. If I have one drink, I can feel a little bit. You know, it was unexpected, but I can believe it.

Mike: Yeah, it was, I thought it was stunning. I thought that was incredibly useful and you know, I work with young people and I've showed that already to some student leaders in high schools, like to understand what we're doing.

Brian: Yeah. And find creative ways to I think the main thing about prevention is not telling people what to do.

Brian: And I think a lot of people don't like that aspect. When we give our talks at high schools and all these different talks my wife and I have done, we don't tell people what to do anymore. I'm not telling you. It's just, I'm just showing you what can happen if you decide to drink. This is what can happen.

Brian: And Brian's the prime example. So just use the information wisely and maybe it'll change your mind. Maybe it won't. You start telling people what to do and it just turns them off. They're going to do the opposite. So I just try to find creative ways, like the one I did about pretending to take shots. You know, that one went crazy and I, the Dr. Phil show called me and Good Morning America. I mean, but I mean, that was me taking fake shots, but I was trying to explain to people how alcohol stacks up in your bloodstream, right? It doesn't just go away in an hour. You know, you take five shots, it's not going to be gone for five hours. So you'll be drunk for five hours.

Mike: Well, and put your what would you say? I was going to say neurosurgeons hat on, but put your scrubs on for a minute. You did a video that talked about the top five things as a neurosurgeon you don't want to do to your brain.

Brian: Right.

Mike: What was number one?

Brian: I don't remember. Cause I haven't looked at them.

Mike: Okay. It was excessively drinking. So what makes drinking so bad for the brain?

Brian: I mean, drinking can kill brain cells, but I think, I think drinking in general is bad because you know, if you get.

Brian: If you get high blood pressure or liver disease, those things can cause problems with your brain as well, you know, like diabetes and high blood pressure and the things that heart disease that that alcohol can cause that can affect your brain in the long term. So I don't know as alcohol itself is going to be what causes your brain to degenerate or anything like that. It's the diseases that it's associated with that affect your brain as a result.

Brian: That's not a hundred percent statement. But I mean, that's, I think that's more what I was trying to get at, I guess.

Brian: And it's not good. I mean, to have blackouts is not good. I mean, you know, to blackout is not good for your brain either.

Mike: You know, I've had numerous people over the years Doc, tell me that they don't remember the night before. And literally don't remember. And they don't know that blackouts is a real thing.

Brian: Yeah.

Mike: And then for most of us, that's scary enough that you just go, I'm not doing that again...

Brian: That's horrible. Think about when you black out and you can't remember what you did the next day. I mean, think about, you know, girls out there. I mean, who knows what can happen to you? I mean, it's such a bad thing not to remember what you're doing, you know, but that happens so often.

Brian: I mean, there's kids out there. I think I did a TikTok on there. So many kids who do that, they do it on purpose, to blackout. I mean, it's a challenge.

Mike: In another one of your talks, you talk about developing healthy habits and habits can be unhealthy or healthy. How do you go about developing healthy habits?

Mike: You know, you showed with the wine, how easy it is at dinner to have simply four glasses of wine over two hours and it's not good for you.

Brian: The way I look at habits is it's just like when Brian died, you know, I wanted to do an Ironman and after he died, I wanted to do something different and unique and challenging.

Brian: And so for me, I just, you know, I think for a habit, you gotta have a reason, right? Or stimulus or something, some reason that you want to get. Start a habit. So say it's a healthy habit. So, you know, you need your reason why you want to get healthy And then you have to have you know, the motivation, you have to get motivated about it and you have to set a goal.

Brian: So for me my motivation was I, you know, I picked the Ironman two years down the road and that was my goal that I set that I was going to do that. And then you have to be committed, right? You have to make a commitment to it and you have to keep your determination up. And so to form a healthy habit. I think what happens is you, you know, you have some stimulus that you want to do something and then you make a commitment to it and then you stay determined.

Brian: And when you do all those three things, you'll find that after I found like after I'd work out, you know, for four, six, four or five weeks of doing all this stuff. It became a habit cause I look forward to it. You know, I'd come home and I'd look forward to working out because it just became a healthy habit for me.

Brian: I mean, so I think the way to form a healthy habit is to set a goal. Make a commitment. I think you gotta make a commitment to that goal somehow. And then you just got to go after it every day, you know, be determined and you'll find that when you do those three things I think what happens is you form a habit, you'll form a healthy habit and, and I don't know, that's my thoughts on habit.

Mike: Did it also help you with your frame of mind?

Brian: I think it did. I mean, Just in general, I think exercise in general, it gives you a better sense of well being. You feel good. It's like a sense of accomplishment. I mean, every time I do my workout, I felt accomplished. Don't you feel good when you eat healthy or you exercise, it feels like you've accomplished something that day, something good.

Brian: And that's motivation. And that motivation, you know, pushes you for the next day and then eventually it just becomes a habit.

Mike: Yeah. I, I have to ask you, you know, I know your kids are older now and we, you know, talked about drinking. But a lot of parents who have something happen. Does the parental anxiety ever leave?

Brian: Oh no. (chuckle) Because every time we get a call at night, like every time Cindy and I get a call at night in the middle of the night and the kids are out, I mean, that's the first thing we think of is something happened to them. And we've had a few instances where, you know, there's been something where their friends didn't know where Kevin was for say, you know, he went up to somebody's lake and somebody couldn't find him.

Brian: And I mean, we're just. It's horrible. I mean, it's the most worst thing because we just figure out it's going to happen again, you know, and so it doesn't, I don't think the parental anxiety ever goes away. It hasn't for us. I mean, they're older now, but it's still there. I mean, it's your kids or your kids.

Mike: Yeah. How do you talk about that with Cindy?

Brian: About what?

Mike: Just, I mean, do you, you talked about living in bubbles for a while, you know, when you're experiencing anxiety or you get a phone call and it gives you a flashback, do you just bury it? Do you talk to her?

Brian: I mean, at the time what's happening, we're talking back and forth constantly because we're upset and we're just wondering what can we do?

Brian: Who can we call? What do we need to do? Beyond, beyond that, I don't think we have discussions about it. Like on when the emergency is not there. Do we discuss our anxiety about the kids? No.

Mike: And so what's next now? What with your social media platform and on your talks and whatever

Brian: Yeah, I think it was the way our social media started out was just for neurosurgery.

Brian: We just thought I had made videos for my patients when I do surgery on a patient. I give them a video that explains their surgery so they can hear it at home. And, you know, so they don't forget everything I said in the office. So we started doing some neurosurgery stuff on TikTok and that became very big quickly.

Brian: And then, you know, that splashed over into all media channels that we're in. And so. I think what I really wanted to do with all this was, was create a platform that I could start doing some good things with. And so that's happened. I mean you know, TikTok and Vox Media came to our house and they did a documentary on us and that commercials on national TV for the past month.

Brian: It's been on every major network and It's a commercial about drunk driving and, and that's, that's what I want to do with social media. I want to be able to reach people to, to do good things. And we've, we started to work a little bit with American Heart Association and we talked a little bit, we did a TikTok about heart disease and stroke.

Brian: And there's a organ donation society in New York City that's contacted us. So we might start working with. The social media for me gives us a platform that we can start hopefully changing society for the better. And that's all I want to do with it. You know, we're not, I'm done any brand deals.

Brian: I don't do any monetary things with it. It's just about trying to create a platform that I can reach people that they'll listen to what I have to say. And then I can start doing things that I think in my mind are good. Good causes.

Mike: I applaud you for that. Well, we've had so many people on here, Brian, parents, and you know, I don't know what all of our preconceived notions are, but it's become clear to me over the last four years of doing these podcasts that the people who make a difference (chuckle) aren't the policy makers, it's the folks who are working it like you are. I mean, we had a, we had a mom who tragically lost her kid who got, ended up getting Narcan in every college dorm in the state of Wisconsin.

Brian: Wow!

Mike: From zero, from none. To every dorm in a year that might have taken our legislature about four generations to do so.

Brian: Well, and I think that happens I mean obviously tragedy is what sparks these things to happen If you look at any any problem in the world, it always comes from that or like, you know Michael J. Fox gets parkinson's disease and then it really kicks in the research and stuff.

Brian: So it takes something, something tragic out there to spark something good to happen. It seems like, you know.

Mike: You know, I really applaud you for and thank you for being with us today of all days. I mean, you suggested it and it is poignant and so thoughtful. Those of you who are listening, you know, how we put links and you can find Dr. Hoeflinger on social media, on YouTube, TikTok probably Instagram, I would think?

Brian: Yeah, I think we're on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, and I think Twitter, my son has a son.

Mike: Or X or whatever it is now.

Brian: Or X, yeah.

Mike: (laugh)

Brian: But I think, I think there's so much good that can happen with social media. It's getting, it gets a bad rap, I understand that, but for all the bad in it, there's a lot of good in it too, you know, and, and that's why I think social media has a big power to it. If if used in the right way.

Mike: Well, I like yours and I think I might've said this to you when we chat on the phone. I like yours because they're short. They're to the point and I'll let you leave us with this. They're full of optimism and hope. Where does that come from?

Brian: Well why not? (laugh)

Brian: So I've had a lot of tragedy in my life. You know, I mean, I've had a lot of things that I've learned lessons from my you know, my mom had brain cancer and she died and my brother when he was younger was in a car accident, had a bad head injury, and I just, all these little things I've learned lessons from and those are things that have changed who I am.

Brian: And I think it can give hope to other people that you can live through these things, you know, and you can learn something from it. I mean, every tragedy has a lesson in it. And even though it's a tragedy, it has a good lesson that you can learn and be a better person from, or make a change in the world.

Brian: And I think everybody. You know, I'm not the only person in the world that has tragedy. Everybody has tragedy in their life. Everybody has something, a problem in their life. And I always say that I'm on my social media. I mean, I wish people would take their problem and then do something good with it, you know, encourage somebody else to do something that you take your problem and do something good with it to show other people that you can make a difference, you know, and that's what I think is the inspiration or optimism that you're talking about. Cause there's no reason not to take something bad and turn it into good. And maybe other people to do something good with it. And that's how we change the world. Right. Make it a better place, I think. But it's little things. It's just.

Brian: We all have to do just little things. It's not like I'm changing the world, but little steps here or there make a difference in some people's lives. And I'll give you a closing statement or thought.

Brian: Nobody thinks that they make a difference. I mean, I think so many people out there and I'm not a big mental health guy as I know of, but I think so many people don't think their lives matter.

Brian: And I get a lot of comments for social media that my life doesn't matter. And I'm not a neurosurgeon. I don't have what you, and I could never do what you do, but you know what? You can. Because my son, Brian you know, he was very nice, nice person. He had a lot, you know, we're very privileged and, and I do very well.

Brian: And he had a lot, but he always stayed very humble. And so. When Brian died the lines out the funeral home were like, people would wait three hours to see us, Cindy and I, and there's a gentleman who waited three hours and he came up to us, he was an elderly gentleman, and he says, I know you don't know me, but I wanted to wait in line to let you guys know this. And he said he was the starter at the golf course where Brian's golf team went to practice, and he was the starter there. And he said, I want you to know that your son is really the only person that would ever come up to me and say hi to me and ask me how my day was and just talk to me.

Brian: And he said, I want you to know that means something to me. Because nobody else, none of these other kids would do that. And he said, it's really made a difference in my life. And I just wanted you to know that. And so here's the guy, we don't know who Brian was out there. And that's not the only thing we heard.

Brian: That's just one example, but. It shows you the power and sometimes you don't learn this, I guess, till you're dead, right? You'll never know what a difference you're making in someone's life, but we learned because Brian died and this guy told us. But just little gestures like that of being nice to a person or holding a door open or just talking to somebody when no one else will.

Brian: It makes a difference, and they notice. It made a difference in that guy, and he came and waited three hours, the people he didn't know, just to let us know that. So, I mean, the little things that you do in life can make a difference, and Brian has taught us a lot of that. There's so many little things like that I could tell you about that people have come and said that Brian did that we didn't know he was out there doing. But not to say he's special.

Brian: I'm just using an example that everybody out there, your lives matter and your lives can make a difference in another person's life. And if you brighten that person's life up for that day, you know, that may make a difference. I put out a TikTok about something. I talked about my dad dying and I said how hard it was on me.

Brian: And, and this guy had contacted me through a message, private message. And he said, I watched your video and I could see the anguish in your, in your you know, in your eyes and hear it in your voice about your dad. And he said, I would never want to make my dad feel that way. I just couldn't do that to him after, after watching your video.

Brian: And he said, I just want you to know that you saved one life tonight because I was going to take my life tonight. And after watching your video, I just don't think I can do that to my father. Now, whether that was true or not, I don't know. But if it was, look at that power. I mean, look at the power of that.

Brian: So little things that we do can really change the, a person's life. You just, sometimes you don't know it.

Mike: And then others around them too.

Brian: Yeah. And that person may change the next person's life and so on, you know, so, so.

Mike: That's great. We'd end it.

Mike: Brian, thanks. And our thoughts are with you and your family tonight and always, appreciate it.

Brian: Thanks, Mike. It was very nice for you to contact me. I enjoyed it. And have a nice weekend.

Mike: Yeah. And for those of you listening, listen in again next time when we talk to more terrific people until then please stay safe.