The Monster and the Mirror

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome everyone. This is Avoiding The Addiction Affliction, a series brought to you by Westwords Consulting. I'm your host, Mike McGowen.

Mike: We're gonna talk about mental illness and the stigma around that term today. My special guest is K. J. Aiello, and I'm gonna use the introduction K. J. that you use in your biography, and you'll see why in a minute folks.

Mike: K. J. Is a Toronto-based mentally ill writer. Whose work includes essays, op-eds, and a soon-to-be release non-fiction book titled The Monster and the Mirror, which explores the intersection of speculative fiction and mental illness. She also authored a terrific article that appeared in the independent publication, The Walrus titled, "Who Gets To Be Mentally Ill" and Not Everybody Served by the Mental Health and Substance Abuse System Equally.

Mike: Welcome K. J.

K. J.: Thank you. Thanks for having me here. I'm very excited.

Mike: Oh, this is great. And, and it's really great to have somebody from the Midwest talking to somebody from Canada and it's actually nice outside [laugh].

K. J.: Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. I'm getting outside. As soon as we're done, I'm getting outside [laugh].

Mike: Okay, well I'll, I'll make this quick [laugh]. K. J. I'm gonna start with the article you wrote.

Mike: I loved it. And, and as a way to jump into this, almost 23 years ago to the day as we're recording this, you were escorted off your college campus. Tell us about the ride in the destination.

K. J.: Oh my gosh. I see. I think it, before my book, I started writing my book which also has some memoir, like vignettes.

K. J.: So I'm diving into a lot of my past. I never really thought about that time in my life, and particularly those instances of, you know, being hospitalized. It was like I dissociated from it for a long time. So that was the what had happened was I attempted suicide and then I called 911 myself. But cuz I was living on campus it was Campus Police who arrived.

K. J.: And a lot of these times it is the police who arrive first, which I, I don't, you know, I think there's a lot of us who think that that should change, but it was, the ambulance didn't arrive. I, I never was brought to the hospital in an ambulance. I was brought to the hospital in the back of a police car. I wasn't handcuffed or restrained or anything like that, but it was just, I was, I was out of it, really out of it.

K. J.: I was dissociated. I was also, I had ingested a lot of medications, so I wasn't really myself anyways, and I just remember thinking this is weird. This is strange. I just feel very, very strange. And I vaguely remember other students, you know, peeking their heads out from their, their dorms, seeing, you know, who's walking by with the police officer, you know, in her pajamas.

K. J.: Right. I had socks on. That's all I had. Right. So it was, yeah, it was, it's very strange. And I think back on that, you know, young person that I was and. You know, I feel for her, I, you know, I wanna give her a big hug [sigh]. It's just, you know, shouldn't be that way.

Mike: Yeah. That was the, you know, that was the year 2000, right?

K. J.: It's a long time ago. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Well, it seems like it, but for a lot of us, that seems like yesterday too. You say in the article that it was in the hospital, you found out who you were and your, your terms were, you were the other, the sick, the deranged, the crazy. What do you mean by that?

K. J.: I felt like as soon as I was brought in the police car and then into the hospital, I felt different. It was like something had shifted. My life would never be the same, and I kind of knew that then. But I also, I wasn't treated very kindly in the hospital. I do think that, you know, a lot of that has changed, but I was shamed a lot in the hospital by the nurses and the doctors.

K. J.: And I felt like I was one of the, the ones, you know, who kept behind locked doors and who aren't spoken about and you know, that's shameful secret, you know, in families, that sort of thing because, you know, in 2000, you know, growing up for me, I was born in 1979, so I grew up in the eighties and nineties and we didn't talk about this, you know, people were crazy and, you know and I felt like I was one of those.

K. J.: And I didn't feel like anybody else. I thought I was different in a really, really bad way. And I was treated differently. You know, I was left in the ER for about 45 minutes before I was triaged.

Mike: And then where?

K. J.: Oh, well, I, I almost passed out and my parents had arrived to the hospital.

K. J.: And my mom, I just remember her yelling at the nurse, you know, why is no one seeing my daughter till they, you know, I basically slid off my chair and then they brought me in and I almost died. You know. Which I, I guess, was my intention, but also in a way it was not my intention that that was it. It's, you know, thinking back on it, it's a traumatic moment, memory for me.

K. J.: And I just think I, I feel angry about how I was treated and how a lot of other mentally ill folks are treated when they need, they need, healthcare. Is what we need. We need healthcare. We need appropriate mental healthcare, and that should be lumped into healthcare period. And I mean, I think things have changed quite a bit.

K. J.: Thank goodness, you know, your podcast being one of them and the work that you do, being one of them. But it's just [sigh], yeah, thinking back on that, it's just, it's tough. It's really tough.

Mike: Well, part of the reason I wanted to talk to you was I was actually I had just finished running two addiction and mental health hospitals back then.

Mike: And so as I was reading your article, I was thinking, would we have reacted this way? And I, I don't think so, but I think a general care hospital would. How would you try to kill yourself? Was it pills, was it?

K. J.: It was pills. Yeah, it was pills. I mean, I was already on actually no, at that time I wasn't on any psycho pharmaceuticals, but it was just a lot of painkillers.

K. J.: I basically scoured my my dorm and I was living with two other dormmates and I just, I rifled through, you know, their pharmacy bags or you know, whatever. And I just got as much as I could and then took it all, you know, it was, it was a desperate attempt.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: I was just, you know, in the days and weeks leading up to it, I just, I was walking around campus, just not, not okay.

K. J.: You know, and I think that like, if anybody else is, you know, students like that, anybody's walking around like that, I just think that's, that's an emergency. That's an emergency right there, you know?

Mike: Well, okay, so as you're sitting in the ER, emergency room...

K. J.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike: Waiting, were you thinking, well, maybe I did take enough.

Mike: Maybe I'll just, this is it. I mean.

K. J.: I don't think I felt anything, but I was dissociated entirely, you know, and it's both like a psychological and a physical thing, you know, I had learned to do, do that quite early. I was bullied really bad and, you know, I live with a bit of trauma in my, in my childhood.

K. J.: So I learned how to dissociate and I think that's what I was doing. I was just sort of curling in, physically curling in on myself, but I was also, you know, head down. I wasn't looking anywhere and I wasn't thinking about anything but, how different everything was. It's, it's an odd, it's really hard to describe, and I'm a writer.

K. J.: I should be able to describe it really well [laugh], but everything was just wrong. I just felt wrong. I think, yeah, I don't, that's the best way I can describe it.

Mike: Well, I think we've seen in the last few years, we've seen an increase, especially among young people of some of the things you're talking about and a decrease of healthcare opportunities for them. I mean, during COVID here in the states, therapists were full. There's nowhere to get help. I mean, I still hear about that.

K. J.: Yeah.

Mike: What help did you get?

K. J.: Back then?

Mike: Yeah, like, like.

K. J.: None.

Mike: None.

K. J.: None.

Mike: So you were discharged from the hospital and see you later?

K. J.: Yeah. Yeah. I was discharged with, I was held so where I was living.

K. J.: There was a small general hospital, and then I was transferred to, it's a, it was a private mental healthcare hospital. Psychiatric hospital. I don't know why they transferred me to a private one because like we have, you know, government funded "mostly" healthcare here. But I, I'm not sure why I was transferred to a private one.

K. J.: Maybe it was just like they didn't have any room for me in the hospital or any, you know, facilities for me in the hospital there. Which I hope has changed. So I was held there what's called a form one, and I think it's about 72 hours, but I was held for a little longer because it was a long weekend [laugh].

Mike: Yeah.

K. J.: It's Easter long weekend [laugh]. It's like, oh, nobody's around. Let's keep her one more day. And basically, you know, they just made sure that, you know, I wasn't. You know, but there, there were no long-term repercussions, physical repercussions from what I did. They were observing me and getting me stabilized, and I'm, you know, air quoting here on, you know, medications and they gave me the wrong medications, you know, they just, I had a 10 minute psychiatric assessment with a psychiatrist there. And then I was just discharged with a completely wrong diagnosis. Medications that sent me into a, you know, a full psychotic episode. And, and they told me, you know what? We recommend counseling. Go see your, you know, on, on campus counselor [laugh]. And that was that [laugh].

Mike: So were you back in the dorm four days later?

K. J.: Yeah. Yeah. I went back and it was, it was final exams [laugh].

Mike: Oh, there you go.

K. J.: I don't know how I sur, I do not know how I survived. I just, I don't know [laugh].

Mike: Did you pass?

K. J.: No, no.

Mike: Shocking.

K. J.: No, I, yeah, that semester was a pretty brutal semester. And, you know, part of my, my mental illness, I have bipolar disorder, so as you can see it on my transcript, the, you know, the highs and the lows and my highs, I would get, you know, 4.0 for the semester.

K. J.: And my lows, I would barely get a zero [laugh] cuz I would not go to class or attend any, to any of the exams. So it's just.

Mike: 4.0 president of nine clubs [laugh].

K. J.: Yeah. Yeah. For a semester until I crashed again. Yeah.

Mike: So how long did it take, because this is not the only time we've heard this story. How long did it take for the correct diagnosis?

K. J.: Yeah, it took 15, 16 years.

Mike: That's unbelievable.

K. J.: Yeah, it was through, also through my partner, you know, when I met my partner he kind of gave me, you know, this really safe space cuz I, I was headed again for a full relapse, just a complete collapse. And it was really bad. And I think if I had been on my own, I'm not sure I would be here talking to you.

K. J.: But it was through him that, you know, he. Encouraged me. It's like, we need, we need to get you some help sort, some real help and we need to fight for this. And I think it was also because at the time, you know, span difference, I think there's a lot more more awareness about, you know, misdiagnoses with bipolar disorder.

K. J.: Particularly my type, which is type two. So I finally got an accurate diagnosis, but I also think that at that time I'd also been doing a lot of my own research which I think was, is one of the reasons why I've, I've done pretty well with my mental illness is that I have a lot of self-awareness and, you know, doing a lot of research on my own.

K. J.: So I kind of had a feeling and when I was speaking with a psychiatrist, we were doing the assessment. Which was longer than 15 minutes [laugh].

Mike: Yeah, hopefully.

K. J.: Yeah, I was, you know, it was more of a, a dialogue rather than, you know, just being peppered with questions and no one looking at me, they're just making notes.

K. J.: And then boom, here's your diagnoses [laugh]. Here's a prescription by. Right.

Mike: Well, and, and so did you, you know, those other drugs that they gave you, did you just stop them.

K. J.: Yeah. Yeah, I did.

Mike: Did you, did you try to self-medicate?

K. J.: No, I've never actually, no, that's a lie [laugh]. I'm thinking about it now. I didn't realize what I was doing.

K. J.: It was in self-medicating. I used to drink a lot of alcohol and that was a coping mechanism.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: I also have social anxiety disorder and I agoraphobia, so being around people was really, it's still really difficult, but drinking made it a lot easier. The problem with drinking is [laugh] it brought, you know, a lot of emotional volatility, so I had to stop that.

K. J.: And that's also, you know, cuz of my partner helping me out with that. So.

Mike: Wow.

K. J.: That was my self-medicating? I don't think it's self-medicating, I think it's just more self-harm.

Mike: And in your writing, you used the term when madness is badness?

K. J.: Yeah.

Mike: What did you mean by that? What do you mean by that?

K. J.: Well, I'm not the first one to say that.

K. J.: I was actually introduced to that term when I was interviewing for the Walrus article in my book. A professor here, he teaches at York University here in Toronto, Dr. Geoffrey Reaume. He, you know, identifies as mad and we say mad with the capital M cuz it's an it's a an identification.

K. J.: But I think it was originally, it was Aristotle who said, madness is badness. And what it is is sort of the, this not dialogue, this narrative of how we talk about madness. You know, historically we're going back, you know, two...

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: Three, 4,000 years. Even in the Bible, it's, you know, madness, insanity is a what's the word? I just lost the word. It's a punishment. Right. It's, you know, for the bad people, if you're bad, if you do something wrong, you are cursed with madness or insanity. Or if you are mad or insane or mentally ill it means you're a villain. Right? And we see this, you know, through our understanding over thousands of years.

K. J.: And it's also, this, this narrative is carried on through, you know, getting into my niche here in fantasy and science fiction in horror films, you know, you think of the mad scientist trope, you think of, you know, what's the movie Split with tom McAvoy? Yeah. Is that his name? Tom McEvoy. Who, who was, he had a fantastic performance, but still it's dissociative identity disorder equals... evil... villain... murderer.

K. J.: So madness is badness and it's just so wrong. It's so wrong because, you know, folks with mental illness far are far more likely to be victims of violence than to actually perpetrated it themselves. And yet [laugh] we have these stories. Madness is badness [laugh].

Mike: Well, and, and going off on that the next question I was gonna ask you is who gets help?

Mike: I mean, look at some of the writings and not to get too nichey here, but [laugh] look at Batman. Right.

K. J.: Right.

Mike: What differentiates Batman from Joker?

K. J.: Yeah. Well, I mean, Batman's rich, so [laugh].

Mike: Right. That's the, yeah. One goes, one goes to Arkham and the other gets movies made of him. Right?

K. J.: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you think about it in, in real life terms, again, here's air quotes.

K. J.: It's You know, a lot of racialized and marginalized folks is you being mentally ill can be dangerous. There is a young woman, Chantel Moore, I believe is her name. She's an indigenous, was an indigenous woman in our east coast, and there was a wellness check that was called for her. And a wellness check means the polic go to your door and just, you know, to see if you're doing okay.

K. J.: And she was shot and killed. She's a young woman, 24, 25 years old, she was shot and killed. You know, and the first thing I think a lot of people do when they, you know, see erratic behavior paired with, you know, a person of color, black or indigenous, is that, you know, they immediately go to the violence.

K. J.: So it's, you know, it can be dangerous for a lot of. You know, black, indigenous people of color to actually claim the term mad or mentally ill, they can lose jobs. They can have their kids taken away by children's aid services and, you know, and healthcare. They're treated far worse in a healthcare system.

K. J.: Yeah, both in the US than in Canada. Yes.

Mike: We did a whole, we did a whole podcast on that with a woman named Chardé out of Cleveland who said that, and it was very stark. She said, the same behavior that a young black male exhibits and a young white female exhibits in a school system is treated totally different.

Mike: And you're right.

K. J.: Absolutely.

Mike: Here in the States, the, the statistics of untreated mental illness are staggering among marginalized populations.

K. J.: Yeah, I think about, you know, again, going back to my first hospitalization, I'm a white woman. If I was not a white woman, where would I be today? I don't know.

K. J.: That's scary. It's terrifying.

Mike: The, the other part of your article that I thought was really fascinating was we still experience stigma.

K. J.: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Even though we're working really hard at it, but despite the taking back of the condition and the terminology, and you had a interesting, pretty thought-provoking part in there where you talked about the positivity campaigns are pretty exclusive to recovering people and not the ones who are suffering.

K. J.: Right? Yeah. I feel like it's a bit of a gentrification of the mentally ill identity. You know, the hashtag self-care and. You know, even, you know, I, I am so bad at just, you know, scrolling through reels on Instagram and of course, you know, I follow mental illness and mental health hashtags. I'm seeing a lot of these things and it's, you know, somebody usually a white person, a white woman of a particular age, you know, you see this video of her curling up with her blanket and her tea in a book and saying that, you know, she's having a mental health day and I think good for you.

K. J.: But [laugh] let's think of, you know, somebody who's racialized, marginalized, disabled they can't exactly take that, you know, a healthcare, mental healthcare day because, you know, they might lose their jobs or, you know, whatever the case may be. So, you know, I feel like I don't, I don't know. I have a really polarized feeling about our [laugh], our self-care and campaigns and that sort of thing [laugh].

Mike: Well, don't you have you have a campaign there? Yeah. Is it called Mad Pride?

K. J.: Well, there's Mad Pride. I'm not entirely sure how, you know, active that they are now, but Mad Pride started here in Toronto back in the nineties, and it was basically I believe it was a bunch of folks who actually survived the institutionalization system here before, you know, during the institutionalization process, but they were institutionalized at some point. So they're, they were reclaiming the language of mad, of mentally ill, of insane, that's sort of psychotic, that sort of thing.

K. J.: That had been used historically as a weapon. They were reclaiming it and hence "Mad Pride". And they were actually marching in the streets, you know, just, just like pride parades that we have in June. But I think like over COVID, it kind of fizzled out a little bit. But that kind of, you know that I, I don't know what's the word for it again?

K. J.: I'm losing words. That concept that that drive.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: Has shifted into different iterations over the years too, based on what we need as well, and also who is controlling the narrative.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: Right?

Mike: Well, yeah. What do we, what do we need?

K. J.: Oh, I don't know. I don't think I'm smart enough to say what we need [laugh].

K. J.: I, I mean, better healthcare. Better mental healthcare. I live here in Ontario, in Canada. Our, our healthcare systems. It's in, within the provincial jurisdiction there is. You know, federal funding that is, you know, given to the provinces, but it's under provincial jurisdiction. And right now our premiere is actually slashing mental healthcare.

K. J.: Well, healthcare budgets are being slashed and our mental healthcare is for the most part, not really covered under our public insurance program. So, I mean, if you are in a crisis situation, you will get help. It will be bare minimum. But if you need ongoing care, like if you need therapy, which I go to therapy every week. It's expensive.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: Medications are expensive. Right. None of that is covered. And we don't exactly, we do have private healthcare insurance here, but think of the, the folks who actually need this the most, they don't actually have the funds most of the time to pay for that. So I think the first thing that we need is money. We just need money.

K. J.: We need to make this a priority because mental health is a crisis. You know, in Canada, in the US the pandemic has made it infinitely worse. And we have a younger generation, they... are... struggling.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

K. J.: You know, our gen setters, our 20 something year olds, our teenagers, they are struggling so much right now without the resources. Right.

K. J.: So I think that's, that's number. That we need is money [laugh]. We need to, you know, put our money where our mouth is. Right [laugh]. Get rid of the hashtag self-care and just give us more resources. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. The place, I'm gonna be later this week. The county in Wisconsin. I'm gonna be in, there's, there's.

K. J.: Yeah.

Mike: Three mental health professionals in the entire county.

K. J.: Oh my gosh.

Mike: Right [laugh]. So, if you have an issue, you better have a car. And if it's winter, maybe...

K. J.: You're screwed.

Mike: Oh or a four wheel. I don't, you know, but.

K. J.: Yeah.

Mike: There's something.

Mike: Well tell us. This clearly had some something to do with, you're writing the book, you call it "The Monster and the Mirror". Talk about your book.

K. J.: Oh my goodness. This book is, is so hard to write. I'm on the editing process right now, and it's just like ahh taking everything that I have. So the book is kind of, it's a blended genre of a, you know, memoir like vignettes but also a social and literary and cultural critique of how we talk about mental illness and how we construct the idea of mental illness through fantasy, sci-fi, paranormal horror.

K. J.: I am, I'm just a nerd for anything. Speculative affection. Such a nerd. I have an Xbox, I love playing my video games. I love, you know, Shadow and Bone and stuff like that. So that's basically what my book is because as I was growing up, my, my escape, would help me during the worst times was reading my fantasy novels and writing my fan fiction.

K. J.: And as I got older, I started to see how I was. People like me, mentally ill people, how they were represented, particularly in speculative fiction. And you know, going back to what we talked about before, the madness is badness and that's how it was depicted. So I was kind of, I started examining that. And then I saw season eight of Game of Thrones and just thought, wow, this has gotta change [laugh].

K. J.: Cause that was brutal [laugh].

Mike: What? The, the ending was brutal or the whole thing [laugh].

K. J.: Oh. I mean, Daenerys, my girl, what they did to her is just, that was brutal. You know? And just the whole Targaryen curse. I don't know if you know a lot about Game of Thrones, but you know the Targaryen name. There's the God's flip a coin, and it's either insane equals violence or you know, normal, right? [laugh]

K. J.: It's like, mmm. So yeah, let's you know, how can we work? How can we reframe this narrative and actually include mentally ill folks in these fantastical stories? I mean, it's fantasy. You could, there are no limits. So why are we restraining ourselves to, you know, mad scientists and yada yada? So how can we include mentally ill folks simply because they're mentally ill. Why does mental illness have to be a good or a bad thing? Why does it have to be they are a hero because of, or despite, or in spite of just let them be who they are, but also be heroes. Right?

Mike: Sure. Why? I mean, you know, I.

K. J.: Yeah,

Mike: I think it's I, I don't know if you've seen any of.

Mike: Have you seen the mashups all over the place that people have done how it should have ended and...

K. J.: Mm-hmm.

Mike: And they, without probably realizing it, they do make heroes of some of the folks that are cascaded in there.

K. J.: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Although, haven't we all been on the freeway and wanted to as we're driving, be able to use a word like dracarys and just take care of the cars in front of us and.

K. J.: You have no idea. I would love to have a dragon [laugh]. I would love a Drogon. Like, let's be real [laugh].

Mike: Well, who wouldn't? Especially when curled up with your tea and your blanket.

K. J.: I know. And my dragon [laugh]. Yeah.

Mike: Well, you make a statement at the end of your article that your life has improved because you simply didn't care to hide or defend myself anymore.

K. J.: Yeah.

Mike: I, I I really like that. How did you mean it?

K. J.: I mean, I think it got to a point, you know, my last hospitalization was 2015 and I just couldn't hide anymore. I think so much of my struggle and so much of, you know, my worsening mental health was this fighting against, you know, this tidal wave of mental illness that was just battering me.

K. J.: And I just, I, I, I don't know, it just kind of clicked into place where I don't care what people think of me, I don't, I don't care if they think I'm a crazy or, you know, insane or, you know, psycho or anything like that. I don't care. You know, that's on you. I don't know if that's, that probably sounds really crass, but I, and I don't care, you know, and that actually, I was surprised at the outpouring of support.

Mike: Yeah I bet.

K. J.: For that. You know, people saying, yeah, that's, that's great. You know, and calling me brave, which is very odd, weird. And just like, I'm, I'm just, I don't care. And you call me brave [laugh].

Mike: Yeah.

K. J.: But it's helped. It's helped. It's, it's this huge weight off my shoulders, you know? I don't, I don't feel ashamed.

Mike: Well, and when, when you, I mean in your bio it says mentally ill writer. When, when people introduce you that way, do you get us, did you get that snap look? Like, did I hear that right?

K. J.: No, no, I think I get that snap look when people are like, oh, but are you mentally ill? No, it's person with mental illness, you know, like, oh, you're not mentally ill.

K. J.: It's like, it's a bad thing, you know, if you, I, I, I don't know. I don't know how else to explain it, but.

Mike: So it's who you are.

K. J.: It's who I am. It is a huge part of my life. It has dictated what I do with my life. You know, I'm a writer because of. I can't, I can't work a regular nine to five Monday to Friday job.

K. J.: I am incapable of doing that because of my mental illness, and I am extremely lucky to not have to do that. But I am mentally ill and anybody who says, but you know, oh, don't say that. Well, why not? It's part of my identity. It's made up a big part of my personality as well, and I'm proud of it. You know, I, I'm not sure I'd want to be mentally ill, but, you know, it is, it is what it is. Right. So.

Mike: You're, you're left, you know, I'm left-handed. I'm...

K. J.: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I, I have no problem with the disability first language with that one. And the only problem I have is when people try and correct me, you know, thinking that mental illness is bad.

Mike: Well, they're trying to, they're trying to sooth you, right?

K. J.: I don't need soothing. Come on. There's no hashtag self-care over here [laugh].

Mike: You need tea. You need a blanket.

K. J.: I need lots of tea. I need a dragon [laugh]. Yeah.

Mike: Well, before we, before we end this, when does it, when do you anticipate the book coming out? And by the way, you all know this by now, if you've been listening at all, the link to K. J.'s stuff will be at the bottom of here, which will include of course, the link to the, the book when it comes out.

Mike: But when is that?

K. J.: Fall 2024. Publisher, ECW Press Worldwide. I'm so excited and nervous, but yeah.

Mike: Well, it'll go great.

K. J.: I hope so.

Mike: How do you edit? I mean, you're doing the editing?

K. J.: Well, I'm working with, my editor is phenomenal. She's also a writer, Jen Sookfong Lee. She's out in Vancouver. She recently had her memoir published with HarperCollins, I believe.

K. J.: She is, she's a wizard. She's just an absolute wizard. And you know, so I'm working closely with her going through the different drafts. But how do I edit? I, I do it slowly with a lot of care. And I rely, I have, I've put complete trust in her cuz I feel like she's, she's the perfect one to help me get this book into the, to the, the shape that I want it to be. Or you know. Yeah.

Mike: If you're up for it, when it comes out, let me, let me read it and then, let's do this again.

K. J.: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to, Mike.

Mike: It'd be great. For those of you listening. I hope you've enjoyed this. I sure have enjoyed it. As you know, there are links to K. J.'s stuff, as I said before, as well as a couple of general links.

Mike: And if you need help, please get it. Help is available. We hope you listen in next week. And until then stay safe and adopt a dragon.

K. J.: Yeah.