Grey Area Drinking

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Sober curious. Dry January. It's becoming much more common to experience people questioning their alcohol use. Today, we're going to talk about grey area drinking, among other things, with our guest Sarah Rusbatch.

Mike: Sarah is the author of a wonderful book, Beyond Booze, How to Create a Life You Love Alcohol Free. It's great. Sarah is a certified women's health and well being coach, an accredited grey area drinking coach, and a keynote speaker who shares her journey to sobriety and impact of alcohol on mental health to global audiences.

Mike: Originally, as you'll figure out in a second, from the UK, Sarah now resides and joins us from Perth, Australia. Welcome, Sarah.

Sarah: Hi, thank you for having me.

Mike: Well, I'm impressed. First of all, we said just before we started, it's what time there?

Sarah: It's 7am for me. So I know that sounds early for you. But in Australia, we're all in bed asleep by half past nine.

Sarah: And we're all up wide awake by half past five in the morning. Like that's just the way we live. So this doesn't feel too bad for me.

Mike: (laugh) Well, I think it's great, actually. And of course, for me, it's yesterday for you, and about five o'clock in the afternoon.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mike: Well, so let's just get started. So the term grey area drinking, what does it mean?

Sarah: It's really useful to start to understand because the way we've talked about alcohol use before has been you are an "alcoholic" in hashtags. Or you are a social drinker and it's not as black and white as that It's not that one day you're a social drinker and then the next day after having an X number of drinks You become an alcoholic.

Sarah: It's a gradual scale. And so actually in the health professionals now they talk about alcohol use as alcohol use disorder. So it's a scale, it's a gradient and it's mild, moderate, or severe. So grey area drinking really talks about that mild to moderate on that scale of someone's alcohol use. So they're not at the point of physical dependency on alcohol.

Sarah: They're not at the point where they need to have medical support to safely withdraw from alcohol. They're not at the point that they need to go into a detox rehab facility, but nor are they at the point where they're just drinking every now and then. Alcohol use has become in some way a reliance. It's become a crutch.

Sarah: It's become a tool for something But we're also high functioning and perhaps no one would think we've got a problem and this was my story for years I was running half marathons. I was raising two kids. I was running a business. But I was drinking well above what would be classed as the recommended units of alcohol.

Sarah: I was using alcohol to numb every emotion that I didn't want to feel. I had nothing else in my toolkit and alcohol use was dysfunctional, but I wasn't physically dependent.

Mike: You talk about, there are lots of little moments. In everybody's life, but in yours that led you to believe that the relationship with alcohol wasn't healthy.

Mike: Tell us what some of those moments were that you strung together and finally went, oh!

Sarah: I remember one day, Mike, really clearly, we were on a camping holiday. We do lots of boating, fishing, camping holidays here in Australia. And my kids were quite little and, you know, it's very common on a campsite for people to start drinking, you know, 10, 11 in the morning.

Sarah: You'll see people just wandering around with a bottle of beer in their hand and that's just very normal. It's kind of the only place in the world where there's, there's no time around when it's acceptable to start drinking. And I think I started, I opened my bottle of wine at about four o'clock in the afternoon.

Sarah: My husband never drank wine, he drank beer. So I had my bottle of wine, he had his bottle of beer. And we're at the campsite, the kids, you know, we're just playing, we're sitting outside, and I'm going back inside to top up my glass. And I remember it got to about quarter to five, so it'd been 45 minutes, and the entire bottle had gone.

Sarah: And I remember thinking, Oh!, well, what am I going to do now? Because it's only quarter to five. I can't not drink anymore. But shit, where did that go? How did I drink that so fast? It would have been on autopilot. I hadn't even recognized it. But the thing I remember feeling was, but I'm not feeling how I want to feel.

Sarah: Like, I was drinking for a reason. I was drinking to get that carefreeness where I didn't care about things and I was, you know, just a little bit more abandoned, which is not great as well when you're, you're parenting. And, but this was very normal. Everywhere I looked, people were drunk on campsites with kids around and I didn't know what to do.

Sarah: And it was just this moment of being like, oh! Well, I'm going to have to open the second bottle. Ah! Is that a problem? Like, what does that mean if I open the second bottle? But I'm going to have to make sure I go slow and I definitely can't finish the second bottle. And there was just this chatter and this, this kind of shock that an entire bottle had gone so fast.

Sarah: And so that was a long time before I actually stopped. But I remember clear as day that feeling of being like, Is my drinking a problem? Is this a problem? Am I drinking too much? And then closer to the time when I actually did stop, there were two things that happened. One was, I went to a 40th birthday.

Sarah: And it was, I think I drank a bottle of champagne before I even got there. And then there was shots, there was tequila, there was Sambuca, there was champagne. It was free flowing, you know, it was at someone's house. And there was lots of music, there was dancing. And I went outside for a cigarette because when I drank I smoked.

Sarah: And I was wearing high heels, which I don't normally do. And I crouched down to put out my cigarette. Toppled forward because I was a bit drunk and had no you know, balance. But because I was drunk, I didn't have reflexes to put my hands out. And so I landed on my face on a concrete driveway. And I split my lip open, I split my nose, there was blood everywhere.

Sarah: And a friend took me home and put me to bed. And I woke up the next morning to my five year old daughter standing next to my bed going, Mommy, Mommy, what happened to your face? And you know that moment when I was like... Wow!, okay, this is not good. And I was like so ashamed that day. I was so like this, I looked awful, and I went to the local chemist, the pharmacy, and I said, I need you to give me some stuff to make my face not look like this.

Sarah: Of course, you know, time is the only thing that heals, but I was like, here's my money, just give me whatever it takes to make this problem go away. So she gave me all these, you know, ibuprofen and anti inflammatory and creams for my face, and as I was paying, She handed me a card for domestic violence support.

Mike: Whoa!

Sarah: Because it looked like I'd been beaten up.

Mike: Sure.

Sarah: And my husband wouldn't ever touch me and I got in the car and I just started crying because I was like, wow, I look so bad that my daughter had to wake up and look at me asking me what I've done to myself. The woman in the local shop thinks that I've just had a domestic violence experience.

Sarah: And that night. I couldn't drink from my mouth because I'd split my lip open, but it was unthinkable to me that I couldn't drink because I had to make these feelings of shame and disgust go away. And so I drank wine through a straw because that was the only way I could get the alcohol into my body with the way that my lips were.

Sarah: And again, in that moment, was thinking, Gee, what are you doing, Sarah? What are you doing? And it was shortly after that, that I took my first break from alcohol. That was in 2017. And I decided I'm going to do 21 days off. I was like, I just need, I've just got to have a reset. I've got to do a liver cleanse.

Sarah: I just need to take a little bit of a break. And I'm like, we all think, right? And so I did my 21 days. And I couldn't believe the difference in how I felt in my head. It wasn't, of course there were physical changes and that, you know, I had a bit more energy and I lost some weight, less bloated. But up here in my head, what changed was I had motivation.

Sarah: I felt positive. I felt hopeful. The negative self talk had pretty much disappeared because I was waking most mornings and the first thought in my head was, Oh, well, you're a loser. You drank again last night when you said you wouldn't, or you drank more than you said you were going to. And if that's how you start your day, if that's how you speak to yourself first thing in the morning, like you're setting yourself up for a day where pretty much spiraling negative thoughts are going to continue.

Sarah: Whereas I was waking up each morning and being like... Hey girl!, look at you go, you know, you've just done another day sober. And I had my calendar and I was crossing these days off. And when you feel that positivity. It then translates into so many areas of your life. And so I was more positive and confident at work.

Sarah: I was smashing targets that all of the previous year I hadn't even got close to because I've just been tired and hung over all the time. And so I got to my 21 days and I was like, I'm going to keep going! Like, this is great! And I did a hundred days. I then went back to drinking...

Mike: Well let me interrupt you there because you write about this and I think this is really important.

Mike: When you got to the hundred days, you did something I find a lot of people do because you could quit for a hundred days. You convinced yourself you didn't have a problem even though you felt great without it.

Sarah: Yeah. Because society tells us. The only people that have a problem with alcohol can't stop on their own, but I stopped on my own.

Sarah: So I was like, oh, boom, I don't have a problem. And so I was like, now I'll be a moderate drinker. Now I'll be a normal drinker like other people. I just needed to have a bit of a break. And within a couple of weeks I was back to drinking the same amount as before.

Mike: You know, Sarah, I think that is so, that's just so typical.

Mike: And I think that, that line where you cross the line the reason I think this is so important is during the pandemic, I think a lot of people crossed that line. And I don't think a lot of people still know they're beyond the line.

Sarah: Yeah, I absolutely agree. Because it's really subtle And it's really like insidious this creep up of how we're using alcohol and the things we're turning to alcohol for but we also live in a society that normalizes alcohol use as a crutch and a tool, particularly for women. The marketing of alcohol to women, particularly in midlife of, Oh, you've had a hard day, go and relax with a glass of wine.

Sarah: Oh, you're overwhelmed. You're stressed. You're anxious. The kids are being naughty. Your partner, you've had an argument, whatever the problem, just go and have a glass of wine. You deserve it. That's your reward. And so we've normalized. everyday drinking and yet it's not normal and it's not healthy but we've fallen into this trap because every way you look every WhatsApp group I'm in that's to do with parenting and mothers is like " Oh i've had a hard day go and have a glass of wine!" Right? That we've just normalized it.

Mike: Well and in your your new book you talk about once you take the alcohol out You're free to add other things in.

Mike: What have you added in?

Sarah: And that's been the most exciting part of this journey and when I support others to remove alcohol, that's the bit I love the most because... Well, first of all, we've got to address why we're drinking. So we've got to know what is alcohol providing a crutch or a distraction from?

Sarah: And for many people that I coach it's a combination of three things It's boredom, because, actually, alcohol dumbs down our brain, so we find boring things more interesting. And so, if we don't have the energy or the motivation to do much after a day at work, And we're just sitting on the sofa watching telly or whatever.

Sarah: You pour a glass of wine, you get a little bit of a buzz. You don't have to move off your bottom and sitting on the sofa. And so, but you're bored actually. And so you're drinking because of boredom. And there's not enough fulfilling activities in your life. And that's the common for so many people.

Sarah: And that was definitely me. If someone had said to me, what are your hobbies? I'd have gone drinking because I didn't do anything like I exercised, I raised my kids, I went to work and I drank, right? And so boredom is one, loneliness is another, because particularly during the pandemic, we need connection, but we need in person connection.

Sarah: We need authentic, real connection. We could be surrounded by people and still be lonely. Because if we can't show up as our true authentic self with the people in our lives and we're "acting" in a way that we think they want us to act, that can feel very, very lonely. And stress, like, you know, stress isn't going anywhere.

Sarah: We're probably the most stressed we've ever been as a generation. And so those are the key reasons. So when it comes to adding in. I go, okay, how are we going to address the stress? And there's a whole chapter in my book about these are some of the ways that I've learned that really have supported me to manage stress.

Sarah: And that has included yoga, it has included sound baths, it's included meditation, it's included breath work, it's included deep nervous system regulation, which has been really, really key for me. Is it boredom? Then, and I've got an entire chapter in the book called What's Your Fun Plan? What can we start to add in that actually is stuff you're interested in? Because we've all lived with this kind of thought that the only way to have fun, the only definition of fun is going out with your mates and getting drunk. Like that's what we've all thought because that's what fun was in our 20s and we've kind of never paused to go, but what's fun in our 40s?

Sarah: Maybe it's something different. And I really challenge people when they're reading the book to go, fun is really anything you do for your own joy and pleasure. So fun to me now would be going on a breathwork weekend and learning about you know, breathwork and the body. It would be doing ice baths. It would be getting up at 5am to go for a hike and watch the sunrise.

Sarah: It would be, I've just flown to Sydney to see the Taylor Swift concert, right? Like it's doing the things that you enjoy that, for your own pleasure. And that's going to be different for everyone. And that's the journey of experimentation that we get to go on when we remove alcohol.

Mike: You know, you mentioned connection before that I think is part of the reason women increase their drinking during the pandemic.

Mike: I think that's a really important component. You find that with the women that you coach?

Sarah: Absolutely, absolutely. Women need connection. Everyone needs connection, but but I would say that women... we're built to kind of have that tribal kind of support around us and online connection is great and it can be so, so helpful, particularly for people, I work with a lot of people that live very remotely and on farms in rural Australia and things like that where and in America and in house connection, in person connection is, is less possible, but where it is possible, I always say it's fantastic.

Sarah: There's a very famous TED talk by Johann Hari, who talks about the opposite of addiction is connection. And if we have deep, authentic, real connection, then our desire and need for alcohol to numb from our lives becomes less. And the connection comes, I've met so many people through the new activities I've added in.

Sarah: So through my yoga classes, through going to ice baths, through joining a hiking club, through joining a running club. I'm going doing adult hip hop dancing classes at the moment. And so when we add this in, we start to meet other people who are like minded people, like who knew that there's all these people out there doing all these activities.

Sarah: But when we're drinking, we just think everyone's just staying at home drinking, but they're not.

Mike: Well, one of the things I love about your stuff is that you say the quiet parts out loud. (chuckle) I have people through the years who have quietly talked to me about their intimate relationships and recovery. And you talked about it pretty openly what talk about the fear going into recovery about intimacy with your husband and what you discovered.

Sarah: Yeah, it's interesting because so many of the women I have a community of over 20,000 women now and so many of them struggle with sober sex because many haven't have used alcohol as a way to relax and unwind and get in the mood when it comes to intimacy with their partner, particularly if they've been married for 20, 30 years. And you know things aren't always what they were in our 20s, right?

Sarah: And so it's again, it's about and I've got lots of steps in the book, about really rebuilding that connection. And there's a whole chapter in my book on what to do in your relationship. I met my husband when I was 24 and my chat up line was, "Do you want to come and play my drinking game?" (chuckle) So like that kind of tells you what our relationship was like.

Sarah: We drank a lot together. And so when we removed alcohol, well, when I removed alcohol, it impacted our relationship. And we ended up in couples therapy because I couldn't communicate with him because alcohol had been our way of connection. And then that was missing.

Sarah: And so I was doing different things because of an evening I didn't want to be sitting in the garden at five o'clock watching him drink beer. So I would get up and go and take the dog for a walk and do all these other things. So we were just drifting further apart. And then when you're drifting further apart, the last thing you want to do is have sex with someone.

Sarah: And so we had to really rebuild the... not even the sexual connection, just the level of connection between us to even get to the point where intimacy was back on the cards. And again, I talk in the book about how we did that, and it was really small, subtle things, but they made a massive difference.

Mike: And that there's implications for that when you're talking about mental health as well. And you said something... I have to read this because it was so good. Seven surprising things that you learned. One of them was that trying to heal yourself while drinking is like... do you remember the line?

Sarah: Oh, is it trying to put a band aid on a... is it that one?

Mike: No, it's trying to heal a broken ankle while running every day.

Sarah: Yeah. I have a similar one with putting a band aid on a, yeah, but exactly. We can't heal ourselves at that deep level if we're still drinking, right? Because when you're drinking, you don't know yourself.

Sarah: You're not connected to yourself in any way. And so in the removal of alcohol, we can really go on a deep healing journey. And I ultimately think when we do that, we remove the need to drink because if we heal what's in us, what's causing us pain or hurt, then the need for alcohol goes away anyway.

Mike: Yeah, you know, I thought it was interesting too how we skirt our way around this stuff and how much it's pushed on us, as you said earlier. I listened to an interview that you did and it was very good. But the interviewer asked you about using and she used the term "within medical guidelines." (chuckle) And I have to tell you, Sarah, you handled that so professionally and skillfully, instead of just slapping her down and saying there is no safe drinking.

Mike: But that's the belief that people have.

Sarah: It was a hard one because that was on live TV. And I think that if it hadn't been, I think I would have given a very different response. But I had to be very mindful of the fact that millions of people were watching on TV as I was speaking. But I feel like we've all been brainwashed.

Mike: Yes!

Sarah: I feel like we're living in a society where everyone's been brainwashed into thinking that as long as you have the right number of units, then it's absolutely fine. Whereas the World Health Organization has come out and said there is no safe amount of alcohol. Canada came out last year and said we don't recommend more than two units a week if you want to stay, you know, healthy.

Sarah: We cannot ignore now. One in five breast cancer diagnoses are directly linked to alcohol, and yet we're still, like, I saw something the other day, Mike. There's a breast cancer charity here in Australia.

Mike: Oh.

Sarah: That has just brought out a pink beer and it's called Sip and Support, where they're selling a pink beer to women to support breast cancer.

Sarah: When alcohol causes breast cancer, it's bonkers!

Mike: You know, I knew where you were going. I see that a ton. I'm so tired of alcohol fundraisers for charities. Like the only way people will contribute is if they're imbibed.

Sarah: Yeah! And I get it. The charities have got to do what they've got to do to try and get some money, right?

Sarah: But surely there's another way, surely.

Mike: Well, in the States, the tagline is "Drink responsibly". And I live in Wisconsin, and they've adapted that to "Drink Wisconsinbly". Or I can't even say it out loud, but which means you can overdrink responsibly and still be okay.

Sarah: And this is what my issue with that messaging is, it puts all the onus on the person.

Sarah: So, it's taking all the onus and responsibility off the substance, and off the people that make the substance, and putting it on the person. without talking about the fact that alcohol is up there with the top five most addictive substances in the world. So even though it's super addictive and it's being marketed and sold to you everywhere you turn, it's you that has to drink responsibly and it's your fault if you can't do that.

Sarah: And that's simply, that's what keeps people stuck and that's why there's so much shame that people experience when they do develop addiction to alcohol because they feel like there's something wrong with them.

Mike: Well, you have a picture on your website that I'll just call olden times and I'm sure it was you when you were much younger and it was so striking because I think everybody has in their scrapbook or on their phone, tons of these pictures.

Mike: It's you standing there with a great big smile on your face, but you're not the center of the picture. You've got two drinks out in front of you. Even when we take selfies, alcohol is at the center rather than our person.

Sarah: Yeah. And this is the thing is, it's not even just, we're doing the marketing and advertising for big alcohol for free because that's not even adverts that the alcohol companies are paying millions to produce.

Sarah: That is us just constantly sharing on social media, here's me with my champagne, here's me with my wine. And I was doing it all the time. I am not judging anyone. It was, but we've got to remember that when we're constantly being bombarded with that messaging. The brain is constantly going, ah, alcohol's okay.

Sarah: Ah, alcohol's what I need to do to have fun. Alcohol's what I need to do to unwind. It's my reward. And that's why we have to work so hard, and I do with my clients, to rewire the neural pathways in the brain to actually start seeing alcohol for what it is, which is a level one carcinogen that causes seven types of cancer and which is actually poison to the body.

Sarah: It's ethanol. It's petrol. And we've got to stop dressing it up into pretty pink bottles that look lovely on Instagram and start looking at it for what it actually is.

Mike: Yeah, the joke I use when I do presentations is the nice thing about alcohol is it only affects the cells in your body that contain water.

Mike: (laugh) And I just wait for somebody to say, isn't that all of them? It's like, yeah! Which is why somebody looks so bad.

Mike: I got to ask you, what do your kids think now?

Sarah: I mean, I honestly don't think they remember drinking mum, you know, and that's what is so incredible for me because next month I'll be five years sober and my kids are now 14 and 12 and it's just I'm so glad now that I can role model... That I can go out and have fun.

Sarah: They saw me dancing at Taylor Swift. They see me going out with my friends all the time and not needing alcohol and that's just what's really important. I know they will probably drink that is part of a rite of passage for teens, although the evidence shows that the younger generation are drinking less than ever before.

Mike: Yes.

Sarah: So we'll see. But I just love that they know that there are choices whereas when I grew up. My parents, every time they socialized, I saw them with a drink in hand. And so little Sarah's watching on going, Ah! when you're a grown up and you go and socialize with your friends, you must drink alcohol. And so I'm so proud that I can rewire that messaging for my kids.

Mike: Well, and if they do use, you're going to handle it a little, probably a little bit differently as well, I would think.

Sarah: Exactly, exactly. So and I think that, you know, my daughter's been going through a little bit of a tricky time recently, and I've been able to support her in a way that I could never have done when I was drinking, because I wouldn't have had the tools.

Sarah: Whereas, because I've done so much work on myself now, and I've got so many tools to support myself, I've been able to use some of those tools with her, which has been wonderful.

Mike: I was going to ask you the walk off, which is can you still be fun without alcohol, but clearly that's the case.

Mike: I saw clips of the Sydney concert with Taylor Swift. How fun was that?

Sarah: Oh, it was just incredible. Like, to be stood there with 83,000 people, no one sat down the entire night. It was three and a half hours. Everyone was on their feet the whole time, just singing and dancing.

Sarah: And just to be part of that, and to be so present in the moment, because not a part of you is numbed with alcohol, and to have my daughter with me, my 12 year old, at her first ever concert, and it was just a very special weekend, a very special moment in time that I will treasure forever, and I'm so grateful, but not a single part of that will be dumbed down with alcohol.

Mike: Oh, that's such a great way to end this. That's just so beautiful. And isn't that in the end, isn't that the reward that you were talking about that we add in, is you're never numb.

Sarah: Exactly. And most people never take a long enough break from alcohol to know how great they could actually feel without alcohol in their system.

Sarah: And so I say to everyone who's listening to this. If you're sober curious, if you're thinking about it, just give yourself that opportunity, take a break and start to explore what might come. What might be different in your life and get a copy of my book for all of the tools and ideas of what I added in to create a life where I no longer want or need to drink.

Mike: It's an absolutely wonderful book, and we put links at the end of this podcast to Sarah's website, as well as she speaks, she coaches all over the world, as well as to her book. I would invite you to get it. It was a fun, interesting read. I laughed during parts of it. I'm like, nodding my head yes during most of it.

Mike: Thanks so much for getting up early, although you would have anyway!

Sarah: I would have been up early, don't worry.

Mike: And joining us today, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you for having me.

Mike: You're welcome.

Mike: Please listen in next time. Till next time, stay safe, stay on your feet, and keep dancing.