ThePeerNetwork.com

[Jaunty Guitar Music]

Mike: Welcome, everybody. This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction, brought to you by Westwords Consulting and the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition. I'm Mike McGowan.

Mike: Loneliness, isolation, stigma, they're all hallmarks of substance use disorders and mental illness, yet recovery requires understanding and support.

Mike: In the midst of his own recovery, my guest today recognized that need and went about the business of meeting it. Kurt Schmidt is the founder and CEO of ThePeerNetwork.com. ThePeerNetwork.com is a telehealth platform where recovering individuals who are self determined in their journeys of mental health or substance abuse have access to online peer support and resources to empower them to lead fulfilling lives.

Mike: Kurt is a Certified Peer Support Specialist and a Licensed Master Social Worker. Welcome, Kurt.

Kurt: Hey, Mike. Thanks for having me today. I'm excited to be here.

Mike: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this too. But before we get to ThePeerNetwork.Com, it's not unusual for people in the field of substance abuse to have their own background story, right?

Mike: And you've got a fascinating one yourself. You entered, I think I read you entered treatment for the first time at 22?

Kurt: Yes. So 22 not by choice, you know, I was...

Mike: (laugh) It never is, is it?

Kurt: No, you know, I actually had graduated college by the skin of my teeth. And at that point, you know, my addiction was, you know, full fledged, you know, I had a lot of health issues and things like that.

Kurt: But I was picked up one day by my parents and with a bag taken to a detox center where I did my first detox. And then taken straight to a treatment program. It was a short program. It was only 14 days back then. So to kind of put it in context, I'm 38 now. So that was 16 years ago. And so I, you know, that was my first attempt at that.

Kurt: And it was very short lived. And there are multiple attempts since then, but, you know, eventually I figured it out, you know, and now I work in the field where I'm super passionate about helping others, empowering others and giving them alternative pathways to seeking support, you know, kind of outside of those clinical, clinical methods or you know, higher levels of care.

Mike: I love it when people say my first attempt, that's not unusual. How many total do you think you did before you go, okay, this is enough?

Kurt: You know, it's a great question. And it's almost so many that I tend to lose count because when I think of attempts for me that attempts also were just detox attempts thinking I could just go detox and then, you know, work a 12 step program or something along those lines, which didn't really end well for me when I did those. As far as you know, the higher levels of care and inpatient, I'm guessing probably four to five.

Kurt: You know, one of those being a 90 day program. So, you know, it's not easy. And I think people, you know, it's important for people to hear that because. It takes time and it doesn't mean you fail if you went once or twice. You know, I think there's a lot of hearsay out there that it takes five to six times for people to really get. It doesn't have to be that way.

Kurt: Everybody is different and there's different pathways to recovery. But for me, it definitely was an ongoing battle. And, you know, my story, like many other people. Was that I was addicted to many things and I went to treatment and then I was addicted to less things and I, you know, things kind of got better over time but there was always this You know, alcohol for me was the thing that kind of remained and that I always thought I could manage, which I think is common, probably a lot of the audience could relate to, but you know, until I finally realized that I couldn't manage it, you know, it was just something that I had an attachment to that, you know, wasn't serving me well.

Kurt: And that ultimately, you know, had to go. For me to really survive. I mean, it was to that point where it was impacting my health. And I have had seizures in the past when I was younger going through detox. And so, you know, it was an all or nothing thing for me and it's not that way for everyone, but for me, it was definitely, you know, coming to that understanding that there was no moderation for me, it had to be abstinence.

Mike: Well, you know, one of the things that I found fascinating about your story is so many people will say over the years to me, "Well, I can't be an alcoholic. I go to work every day, or I can't be addicted. I do this, that." And even though you said you got through by the skin of your teeth, you got a college degree through all of this.

Mike: So that must help when you're talking to people, that must throw that argument right out the window for them.

Kurt: Yes, and you know, I was actually managed to have a somewhat successful career, you know, while managing the alcoholism, you know, I will say that, you know, I was able to stop the drug use, you know, in my kind of mid 20s. But the alcohol use, it's a progressive disease.

Kurt: So, you know, I was still going to work. Actually getting promoted, you know, in my career, like doing well, but it, you know, it started kind of popping up where I think people were noticing. I had a couple of people mentioned things to me, you know, in my later 20s and. It was always that monkey on your back.

Kurt: And I think people that struggle with that can relate to that. It's like this giant secret you're carrying around all the time. It impacts kind of your self confidence, you know, your work performance, even though I was doing, I thought I was doing well and getting promoted and things like that. It just limited my potential.

Kurt: Cause I knew I had this secret that I was hiding. And I was always afraid of being exposed, you know, and that is a lot of energy and a lot of it's exhausting to be honest, you know, and it was really liberating when I finally got to the point where I was just. You know, I had enough and some of that had to do with, I had a parent who struggled with that a father who ultimately passed away two years ago from alcoholism.

Kurt: So, you know, at that point I had already been kind of on my recovery journey and, you know, it really just solidified that I was on the right path and, you know, I could see how it ended even though it was terrible and no one wants to lose a parent, but. I almost look at it like it was you know, I hate to say it, but it was almost like a blessing where I realized like, Hey, I don't want to be in that position for my daughters, you know, I have two daughters and it kind of just solidified me, you know, the path I'm on and what I'm doing.

Mike: Well, and out of all that came the idea for ThePeerNetwork.com what, where did that come from?

Kurt: So, you know. It came from working on my own recovery. You know, when COVID happened, I really thought about COVID was not easy for me, by the way, for like many people. But, you know, at that time I started to kind of reevaluate.

Kurt: What I wanted to do with my career at that time, I was working in supply chain and technology and I was looking to get into like the mental health field and recovery field. And I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a clinical psychologist here in Saint Louis, where I live and trying to explore, like, what the.

Kurt: What's the quickest way I can get into that field without going back to school and getting a master's degree? Because a lot of clinical roles like a licensed professional counselor or social worker, you need a postgraduate degree. And I had, I had an MBA. I finished an MBA. You know, during all this and he's like, well, you should look into peer support.

Kurt: And I had never, I hadn't heard of it. I wasn't sure what it was. And I did some research and found here in Missouri that Missouri has just like most other states, they have a program that certifies peer support specialists. And those are individuals who have basically lived experience with substance use or mental health, and they can go through training to support others going through similar challenges.

Kurt: Typically, you know, you're in long term recovery. The support's really based on shared experience. Like, you know, I've been where you're at. I can kind of walk you through that, but you go through training on different, you know, motivational interviewing ethics, like confidentiality. And so I, I did that.

Kurt: Because it was kind of the, the least invasive way I could get into the field and have credibility and work in a setting where I could support those clients. And so I did that. And while I was doing that, I decided to go back to school and get a master's in social work. So I was working as a peer support specialist at an organization here, community organization.

Kurt: And, you know, I had a. A large caseload of clients. I think at the time I had over a hundred, which is not recommended, but you know, it just shows you that there's, there's not, there's a shortage of people working in the field, you know? And so I, I did that, but what I noticed is. First of all, I was super passionate about helping others going through similar challenges, you know, that was really important to me.

Kurt: And I noticed that the clients I worked with, once they understood what a peer was and how we could support them, like the walls came down because they understood like, Hey, this person had been where I'm, you know, going through similar things. The story may not be exactly the same, but. You know, they can relate.

Kurt: And so that's what I loved. And I led a lot of groups. I worked a lot with DUI court, drug court, family court, clients. But the challenge was, is that peers are really underpaid for what they do. I know for me, you know, it was a career change. I took a huge pay cut, but it wasn't something I could do sustainably and, you know, support a family.

Kurt: And you know, I had two kids, I'm married. And so I, like many other peers, I ended up pursuing other credentials, other licenses, because I couldn't continue to do the peer work at that pay. Cause there wasn't a lot of opportunities for growth within that role. And that's hopefully I answered it, but that's what led me to start ThePeerNetwork.com because I saw that there was an opportunity to provide a platform for peers to connect with people outside of those organizations where peers are typically found and kind of underpaid. And so I created this platform and really tried to leverage technology to give peers an opportunity to provide their services without a lot of those administrative overhead, you know, things at those organizations that cost those organizations money and, you know, ultimately impact the pay for the peers and bring peer support to the general public, because I don't think a lot of people know what it is.

Kurt: And there was an opportunity there to really help people that maybe just don't need clinic, you know, maybe they're, they don't need clinical therapy or they do need clinical therapy. Peer support can be like a great. additional resource for them. And not everyone's, you know, needs to go to inpatient treatment.

Kurt: You know, maybe they just want to talk to somebody who understands and can relate, you know, firsthand and like that's enough for them to have some hope and start to make some changes, you know, for the better in their life. So that's why I started it. You know, the last two years have been really building that platform and trying to get a team together, you know, of experienced peers.

Kurt: And we're, we're at that point now and trying to just, you know, educate people about what we do and how we can help.

Mike: Walk us through how it works. I'll give you an example. I have a friend of mine who just changed jobs. And in between changing jobs, there was a gap where had to get insurance to certify the new place she's working. And so her clients were not able to access her directly in the way that they have. That could be a bridge also for you. So if one of those people said, well, what can I do to bridge this gap here? Or in addition, how do they go about accessing your services and walk us through it?

Kurt: Yeah, so our platform is super simple to use. And I think that's one of the benefits of using it is if a client wants to come and meet with our peers, first of all, our team, everyone has a bio posted on our website. All of our team members are nationally certified peers, meaning they have their state certification.

Kurt: They also have a national certification, which typically requires a lot of work experience references, you know, we do pretty thorough background checks and things like that. But a client would come to our website, all they have to do is register. It takes about two minutes and then they can simply just click book now.

Kurt: And they select their peer select a date and time. Our peers schedules are all built in there and so they can select the time that works for them. And it also will work for the peer because it's uploaded in there. And then at the time of the meeting, they simply just go to their appointments tab and they click join the meeting at the time of the meeting.

Kurt: Like it's that simple. A window pops up. There's no downloads required or anything like that. It's simply all done through our website, through our platform, which is HIPAA compliant. And our services, we do charge for our services just to be transparent. You know, it's pretty affordable anywhere from $30 to $60.

Kurt: Which, you know, we do not replace clinical therapy, but if you look at clinical therapy costs, I mean, private practice can be anywhere from $140 to $250 per session. So it's a great way to bridge the gap like you asked, Mike, you know, especially for people that maybe just are on the fence about getting, you know, meeting with someone. You know, it's a really good first step to talk to a peer because what we do as peers really is not, we're not intending to replace any other type of service it's to get clients to where they need to go. And if that means that clinical therapy is where they need to be, then we try to help them build that motivation and.

Kurt: You know kind of process that and get them to the point where they're they're ready to take that next step. And that may even include. You know, kind of using motivational interviewing to, you know, kind of reinforce some of the call it like change talk where they're gonna, you know, maybe they're hesitant to meet with a psychiatrist, you know, because they don't want to take medication and, you know, it's like helping them process that and get to the next steps of whatever they need for their recovery or their mental health.

Kurt: If that makes sense.

Mike: Yeah. And I, you know, when, not to gloss over it, but when you, when I saw on online the cost, I was like, Whoa!, this is a doable for most people, you know, that's relatively affordable for what you're offering. One of the phrases that caught my eye on your website was self empowerment and self direction. A lot of focus on the individual.

Kurt: Yeah, so, you know, there isn't one path to recovery from substance use or mental health. I think, you know, what works for me may be different from someone else. And we don't even promote abstinence in the sense, you know, I think if you get into some of the 12 step programs, which I'm a fan of, like, that was a big part of my story and helped me, but I also understand that's not for everyone.

Kurt: You know, those are abstinence based programs. Here we're really about just improving people's quality of life. You know, we understand that not everyone's ready to quit doing whatever, you know, whatever their substance of choice is, or they're just not ready to take certain steps. And we're here to really support them, kind of figure that out and figure out what their goals are and how we can support them in their journey.

Kurt: Because the reality is, is. Pathways are different for everyone and just because, you know, someone has an issue with the substance doesn't mean that they're ready to stop completely. It's like, how do we help that person, you know, engage in less risky behaviors, you know, or, you know. Maybe try to moderate for a while and see how their life improves.

Kurt: Or maybe it's just set some goals and help hold them accountable. You know, there's a sense of accountability there when you're meeting with someone. So it's really just meeting people where they're at and then helping them like figure out, what their best life looks like and how we can support them to get there.

Mike: Have you had any companies, hospitals, treatment centers, clinics, contact you as a service that you could offer in addition to what they are?

Mike: Because I would think that it would work really well hand in hand with a lot of the traditional programs that are already out there.

Kurt: Yeah, so we're working through that now. We've gotten a lot of interest actually lately. You know, one of the challenges for us, which is changing is that we provide peer support and that's all we provide.

Kurt: So there's a lot of companies out there that do have peer support specialists on staff, but they're typically part of, you know, a clinical program where someone's meeting with a psychiatrist and then they're assigned a peer, you know. And we even have team members that have worked with those organizations.

Kurt: And what we see is there's not a lot of engagement there. You know, because they're there for another service. And the peer is becomes kind of an afterthought. And a lot of companies don't know really how to incorporate peers into their program because they're not clinicians. So there's this like weird, I wouldn't say it's a divide, but.

Kurt: You know, the clinicians provide their clinical support and the peers are kind of, Hey, how do we fit them in? Well, with us, you know, we provide just peer support. You know, I'm a peer, our whole team is peers. That's what we're passionate about. And so now to answer your question, yes, we are getting interest from hospitals, health systems.

Kurt: And we're just figuring out ways, like how we can incorporate our services. As a standalone service to those those organizations. So yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff in the works we've even been in talks with commercial insurance companies which are interested I think one of the... Another challenge we face is you know, we're a small smaller startup. So you know supporting some of those large commercial plans with millions of members, you know, how do we do that?

Kurt: Well, the good news is our technology, our platform we built, we can support unlimited number of meetings at any given time in a HIPAA compliant environment. So like that part of it's there. It's really about building the workforce and just kind of spreading the word about what we do, because I think.

Kurt: You know, as we've seen as of recent, you know, when companies or health care systems or insurance hears about us, they're really excited. It's just, how do we support those large numbers of members or patients and we're getting there.

Mike: Well, and in the end for you and the peers, there, it's just a joy of helping.

Kurt: Absolutely. Yeah. None of us got into it for the money that's for sure. Right. Like, but. It doesn't mean that they should not be paid well, you know, equitable pay for what they do because they are helping people and that's kind of back to the beginning of our conversation. That's why I started this.

Kurt: Is really just using technology to provide a medium for peers to provide their services. And let them, you know, reap the benefits of that financially. So they can build a career and continue to do this work that they're so passionate about and not have to leave the workforce to go pursue other career opportunities.

Kurt: Cause that's what's happening. You know, we're losing a lot of good peers because it's just not sustainable. The way the model kind of works now. I almost would say we're disruptive in that sense. And I think, you know, I've seen some of that too, where, you know, we are disruptive and the traditional kind of medical model of treating mental health and substance use.

Kurt: And so that's something that, you know, will be a challenge for us, but I think over the next year, two years, you know, peer support is going to be a go to intervention for people because there's just such a gap with providers that provide mental health services. And if the field is just waiting for postgraduate, you know, master's level clinicians, you know, that takes two to three years for those people to be up to speed and in the workforce, you know, and there's not a lot of people entering that field. So it's like, how do we bridge the gap? And this is, this is one way we're trying to do that, you know.

Mike: People who listen to this, both clinicians as well as the public, already know this if they've listened before that we'll list the contact information at the bottom of the podcast.

Mike: But for those who like to hear it, how would people get in touch with ThePeerNetwork.com and find out more about it or even use the service?

Kurt: Yeah. So, you know, I would say the first step would be to check out our website, you know, it's www.ThePeerNetwork.com. You can reach out to us through the website.

Kurt: There's a link there to contact us. We have a phone number on the website. You can call. You know, I may even answer the phone, one of our team members, if you call, it just, it just really depends. And, you know we're happy to answer, we take phone calls a lot where it's people just kind of seeking other information and we try to point them in the right direction.

Kurt: So we're just trying to get people to the resources they need. We understand where we may not be the best fit for everyone, but we want to get them to where they need to go. And so checking on our website, it's a good start. We're on, you know, Instagram and Facebook, you know, we do some posts on there and also LinkedIn. You know, I'm on there, it's Kurt Schmidt and we have a LinkedIn page as well.

Kurt: So, you know, any of those ways is the best way to connect with us.

Mike: And, and if you do that, you're going to see a bunch of happy faces coming back at you. I'll tell you that. Everybody.

Kurt: Yeah.

Mike: (chuckle) It's great. Well, Kurt, thanks for having this conversation with us. And also thanks for your innovative work and filling a gap that I was excited to talk about.

Mike: For those of you who are listening it's just one more example of a way that people are trying in this culture to meet the needs of those people out there who have substance use and mental health disorders.

Mike: Please, for those of you who are listening, listen in next time if you're able. And until then stay safe and stay connected.